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(SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.

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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:22 am

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n7axw wrote:I've been catching up here and I know that the relavant discussion was several pages back on this thread...

But I do wamt to observe that I was not under the impression that those 10m casualties came from the SLN attack... I thought that they were the result of chemical or bio warfare being waged by the MAlign. I'll be the first to admit that my impression is a bit foggy here and I don't remember where it came from.

Don



As far as I'm aware, those casualties came from an overheard conversation that RFC was having with someone at a con some time ago, and has no other context. Everything else that's been attached to it comes from speculation on this forum. My own speculation is that RFC was trying to come up with a way that the Battle of Beowulf would be something other than another curb-stomp while still letting the good guys win.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:50 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
n7axw wrote:I've been catching up here and I know that the relavant discussion was several pages back on this thread...

But I do wamt to observe that I was not under the impression that those 10m casualties came from the SLN attack... I thought that they were the result of chemical or bio warfare being waged by the MAlign. I'll be the first to admit that my impression is a bit foggy here and I don't remember where it came from.

Don



As far as I'm aware, those casualties came from an overheard conversation that RFC was having with someone at a con some time ago, and has no other context. Everything else that's been attached to it comes from speculation on this forum. My own speculation is that RFC was trying to come up with a way that the Battle of Beowulf would be something other than another curb-stomp while still letting the good guys win.

One other bit that may not have shown up yet in the speculation - The political dimension will mean that smacking League forces as soon as they cross the hyperlimit may not be possible. So there may well be SD's that get damaged or debris from them that will be flying toward Beowulf out of control. Some chunk of that the leaks through close in defenses could have a Yawata Strike like effect on Beowulf to account for 10 million casualties, or what remains to make up 10 million after the BF casualties themselves (if the 10m figure doesn't exclude those).

It would take a peculiar bit of maneuvering to get debris from units still decelerating for a zero-zero intercept to do that, but an alternative may be (eeek!) that result from destruction of BF units already near Beowulf and with zero or trivial relative velocity to it.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by munroburton   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:26 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:As far as I'm aware, those casualties came from an overheard conversation that RFC was having with someone at a con some time ago, and has no other context. Everything else that's been attached to it comes from speculation on this forum. My own speculation is that RFC was trying to come up with a way that the Battle of Beowulf would be something other than another curb-stomp while still letting the good guys win.

One other bit that may not have shown up yet in the speculation - The political dimension will mean that smacking League forces as soon as they cross the hyperlimit may not be possible. So there may well be SD's that get damaged or debris from them that will be flying toward Beowulf out of control. Some chunk of that the leaks through close in defenses could have a Yawata Strike like effect on Beowulf to account for 10 million casualties, or what remains to make up 10 million after the BF casualties themselves (if the 10m figure doesn't exclude those).

It would take a peculiar bit of maneuvering to get debris from units still decelerating for a zero-zero intercept to do that, but an alternative may be (eeek!) that result from destruction of BF units already near Beowulf and with zero or trivial relative velocity to it.


Debris clearance isn't tricky. Look how Tenth Fleet handled it in Spindle, even forced to press destroyers into SAR work, they were able to stop damaged units from crashing into anything.

Since an atrocity is on the table here, I'm thinking of a recent event where one was expected and the defending commander had to deploy some of his units as a planetary screen: Second Battle of Congo. The threat there was a deliberate bombardment.

My current guess is something similar to what happened with William Daniels, Filareta's ops officer. Except instead of launching a fleetful of pods at an opposing fleet, they'll flush everything at Beowulf. Even Grand Fleet couldn't stop every missile fired at it during Second Manticore. If only the BSDF is in position to intercept that kind of dick move, the planet's going to take hits.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:47 pm

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munroburton wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:One other bit that may not have shown up yet in the speculation - The political dimension will mean that smacking League forces as soon as they cross the hyperlimit may not be possible. So there may well be SD's that get damaged or debris from them that will be flying toward Beowulf out of control. Some chunk of that the leaks through close in defenses could have a Yawata Strike like effect on Beowulf to account for 10 million casualties, or what remains to make up 10 million after the BF casualties themselves (if the 10m figure doesn't exclude those).

It would take a peculiar bit of maneuvering to get debris from units still decelerating for a zero-zero intercept to do that, but an alternative may be (eeek!) that result from destruction of BF units already near Beowulf and with zero or trivial relative velocity to it.


Debris clearance isn't tricky. Look how Tenth Fleet handled it in Spindle, even forced to press destroyers into SAR work, they were able to stop damaged units from crashing into anything.
Debris clearance isn't always tricky. If the SLN units at Spindle had been closer to it, if they'd been maneuvering in different directions, if they'd been shot up more, if 10th Fleet had fewer units to respond, it could've been a lot worse. The battle at Beowulf can certainly have some of those conditions satisfied, for all we yet know.
Since an atrocity is on the table here, I'm thinking of a recent event where one was expected and the defending commander had to deploy some of his units as a planetary screen: Second Battle of Congo. The threat there was a deliberate bombardment.

My current guess is something similar to what happened with William Daniels, Filareta's ops officer. Except instead of launching a fleetful of pods at an opposing fleet, they'll flush everything at Beowulf. Even Grand Fleet couldn't stop every missile fired at it during Second Manticore. If only the BSDF is in position to intercept that kind of dick move, the planet's going to take hits.

If they're targeted on the planet itself, and you really want to kill people, any leaker would do far more than 10m in deaths just by slamming into it as a projectile.

I suppose if you are less concerned about deaths and more concerned about making it look like some sort of deliberate move on some SLN officer's part, the missiles would be fired with normal parameters - get near and fire off laserheads - and nominally at stations, bases and fortresses near Beowulf. That could account for 10m casualties and not far more - there are almost certainly going to be some laserheads that discharge into the atmosphere or surface without those being the actual target. (And the debris from the orbital targets will still be going places, sometimes down.) The BSDF may not be in the best position to stop those missiles either, if it is going out to meet the hundreds of SLN "observer" wallers, leaving just close-in defenses to fend off a surprise attack.

That kind of attack could look like "just" an attack on Beowulf's orbital infrastructure and bases/fortresses, the sort of thing that's not an EE violation but too close for comfort for responsible navies. It could smear the SLN's reputation (even with itself; they're not monsters) without sending up red flags about nanotech mind control for everyone.

It would take someone with a known, prepared simple combination of movements to execute, like Daniels and the use-or-lose missile pod flush. I wouldn't think that an ops or tactical officer would be ready with such a combination for an attack on Beowulf or the orbital targets though. It would more likely take creative reprogramming on the missile or tactical computer end, possibly triggered by some human input that may itself have some nanotech influence.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:49 pm

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You do realize that the SL sending a fleet of SD's to "observe" at Beowulf would be two very clear things to everybody with two brain cells who was watching?

1) The SL intended to intimidate Beowulf into voting to remain in the League by overt threat of conquest.
2) If said fleet moves into Beowulf System without the expressed consent of the EXISTING GOVERNMENT(either before or the EXISTING GOVERNMENT after the vote) and a fight starts, it is BSDF defending itself from invasion.

As soon as the vote is tallied and reported, the results will be made known. Sure, there may be some people who may claim that there was screwing around with the voting, but just exactly what constitutes the justification of sending in a WARSHIP, let alone a fleet of warships to "examine" the voting and it's results.
If the vote is in favor of leaving the League (which we expect) that the League sends a fleet across the hyper-limit is a deficit violation of Beowulf's sovereign space and the League is has essentilay declared war on Beowulf

Yes, the Mandarins will argue that Beowulf has no right to leave. What other members think (at both the systmem government level and popular thought in those systems) is going to be somewhat less clear. Using overt force and forcing -there is no other way to look at it- the Beowulf population to repudiate the plebiscite. Makes it really clear to every other member of the League that they are about to also fall under the gun if this stands.

That there is the 10million person event, however it is caused, is PROBABLY going to result from something the SLN does and 1st BSDF and then the GA (we are really not sure if there actually are going to be RHN out at least at the Sigma Draconis Terminus along with RMN for this one) get physically involved in what is going to develope.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by n7axw   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:57 pm

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A question that crosses my own mind... Some of you have been positing big numbers of SDs for the attack on Beowulf. Does the SLN really have time to assemble a fleet that large before the plebicite?

Don
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:00 pm

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n7axw wrote:A question that crosses my own mind... Some of you have been positing big numbers of SDs for the attack on Beowulf. Does the SLN really have time to assemble a fleet that large before the plebicite?

Don


Personally, I expect the same 100 SDs that tried to transit the Terminus to assist Filareta. Those are known to be within reach of Beowulf. Whether they can or will be reinforced I can't say, but it seems likely that those are what is readily available.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Relax   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:40 pm

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n7axw wrote:A question that crosses my own mind... Some of you have been positing big numbers of SDs for the attack on Beowulf. Does the SLN really have time to assemble a fleet that large before the plebicite?

Don

The answer is yes. Plebecite is in 2 months, or was it 3? 8 or 12 more weeks away.

SD's are all inside SL space.
Beo--> Earth 1 week. 60LY. Haven to Trevors Star 1 week 60 LY. Distance from Earth to max radi of SL space an SD could possibly be is 200LY without using junctions etc. So 3 weeks to deliver order at most. We have information that there are no SD's outside of the Shell with the vast majority inside the Old SL itself due to old basing infrastructure, so the actual distance should be much less than 200LY, and is probably at most 120LY or so. Delivery time to the SD's is a all of 2-3 weeks at most. Obviously return trip of the SD's will be 2.5-3.5weeks. The only question remains WHEN does the SLN decide to send out the orders to move.

The entirety of the SLN SD OOB could be around Beowulf in as short as 6 weeks. 1.5 months. The Majority of the SLN OOB could be in Beowulfan space in as little as 5 weeks.

The only question is how long does it take for the SL Mandarins to make up their minds giving the order to suppress Beowulf.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by n7axw   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:23 pm

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Relax wrote:
n7axw wrote:A question that crosses my own mind... Some of you have been positing big numbers of SDs for the attack on Beowulf. Does the SLN really have time to assemble a fleet that large before the plebicite?

Don

The answer is yes. Plebecite is in 2 months, or was it 3? 8 or 12 more weeks away.

SD's are all inside SL space.
Beo--> Earth 1 week. 60LY. Haven to Trevors Star 1 week 60 LY. Distance from Earth to max radi of SL space an SD could possibly be is 200LY without using junctions etc. So 3 weeks to deliver order at most. We have information that there are no SD's outside of the Shell with the vast majority inside the Old SL itself due to old basing infrastructure, so the actual distance should be much less than 200LY, and is probably at most 120LY or so. Delivery time to the SD's is a all of 2-3 weeks at most. Obviously return trip of the SD's will be 2.5-3.5weeks. The only question remains WHEN does the SLN decide to send out the orders to move.

The entirety of the SLN SD OOB could be around Beowulf in as short as 6 weeks. 1.5 months. The Majority of the SLN OOB could be in Beowulfan space in as little as 5 weeks.

The only question is how long does it take for the SL Mandarins to make up their minds giving the order to suppress Beowulf.


Nice post...Sinse from what we have at the end of ART, the order was probably given somewhere in that timeframe, they should have enough time. One qualifying factor would be that they would need at least some time to organize themselves into a fleet once the SDs are gathered, but still one would think they'd have the time...

Don

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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:51 am

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Brigade XO wrote:You do realize that the SL sending a fleet of SD's to "observe" at Beowulf would be two very clear things to everybody with two brain cells who was watching?

1) The SL intended to intimidate Beowulf into voting to remain in the League by overt threat of conquest.
2) If said fleet moves into Beowulf System without the expressed consent of the EXISTING GOVERNMENT(either before or the EXISTING GOVERNMENT after the vote) and a fight starts, it is BSDF defending itself from invasion.

As soon as the vote is tallied and reported, the results will be made known. Sure, there may be some people who may claim that there was screwing around with the voting, but just exactly what constitutes the justification of sending in a WARSHIP, let alone a fleet of warships to "examine" the voting and it's results.
If the vote is in favor of leaving the League (which we expect) that the League sends a fleet across the hyper-limit is a deficit violation of Beowulf's sovereign space and the League is has essentilay declared war on Beowulf

Yes, the Mandarins will argue that Beowulf has no right to leave. What other members think (at both the systmem government level and popular thought in those systems) is going to be somewhat less clear. Using overt force and forcing -there is no other way to look at it- the Beowulf population to repudiate the plebiscite. Makes it really clear to every other member of the League that they are about to also fall under the gun if this stands.

All true. It's political suicide for the League. Al-Fanudahi implied essentially the same thing and regards it as yet another in the stupid idea conga line. And they may well do it anyway.

Building in an atrocity would be something the Alignment may do, if they can, just to get behind the idea and make it even worse for the League and, incidentally, Beowulf.
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