SPOILER: Road to Hell

Notwithstanding minor advances...



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it would appear that Sharona is in fact badly outmatched. they are a 1900 society up against a 2015 society that appears to have far more people and resources.

phillies wrote:Notwithstanding minor advances...



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it would appear that Sharona is in fact badly outmatched. they are a 1900 society up against a 2015 society that appears to have far more people and resources.

No...

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...you missed the implications of shipping non-human sentient's up chain from Sharona.


Think universe physical law tipping point.

NB: It doesn't matter how powerful the Arcanian economy is if they are fighting into Sharonan physics dominated universes. For example, Arcanian Sea Drake won't do much to sentient Orca's because by their very presence sentient Orca's lock the Hell's Gate universe into Sharonan natural laws and void Arcanian control crystals.

Mil-tech bard wrote:

phillies wrote:Notwithstanding minor advances...



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it would appear that Sharona is in fact badly outmatched. they are a 1900 society up against a 2015 society that appears to have far more people and resources.

No...

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...you missed the implications of shipping non-human sentient's up chain from Sharona.


Think universe physical law tipping point.

NB: It doesn't matter how powerful the Arcanian economy is if they are fighting into Sharonan physics dominated universes. For example, Arcanian Sea Drake won't do much to sentient Orca's because by their very presence sentient Orca's lock the Hell's Gate universe into Sharonan natural laws and void Arcanian control crystals.

Both sides have the same problem, namely as they get into universes where the other side's laws of nature work their technology has problems.

From all descriptions, the number of simians, cetaceans, and anything that the author may have skipped so far to be shipped out-universe would appear to be much smaller than the number of people. Furthermore, the cetaceans do not use Sharonan technology, except cracking "clams" for "lunch", so it is inobvious that the cetaceans will affect the local laws of nature. They do not appear to use the variable parts of those laws, as opposed to the quantum laws that fix chemistry, which we know are fine, because folks hauled to the far end of the chain of universes did not croak.

What can Arcana do? I was considering, for example, deploying large numbers of flying automobiles for a mass assault on a gate, at least in universes where the flying cars still work.

There is some hope, if reason prevails, that the next volume could see a truce, following which both sides have their civil wars. After all, why is the supply of Emperor Chava's troops a bit light?

phillies wrote:

Mil-tech bard wrote:
No...

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...you missed the implications of shipping non-human sentient's up chain from Sharona.


Think universe physical law tipping point.

NB: It doesn't matter how powerful the Arcanian economy is if they are fighting into Sharonan physics dominated universes. For example, Arcanian Sea Drake won't do much to sentient Orca's because by their very presence sentient Orca's lock the Hell's Gate universe into Sharonan natural laws and void Arcanian control crystals.

Both sides have the same problem, namely as they get into universes where the other side's laws of nature work their technology has problems.

From all descriptions, the number of simians, cetaceans, and anything that the author may have skipped so far to be shipped out-universe would appear to be much smaller than the number of people. Furthermore, the cetaceans do not use Sharonan technology, except cracking "clams" for "lunch", so it is inobvious that the cetaceans will affect the local laws of nature. They do not appear to use the variable parts of those laws, as opposed to the quantum laws that fix chemistry, which we know are fine, because folks hauled to the far end of the chain of universes did not croak.

What can Arcana do? I was considering, for example, deploying large numbers of flying automobiles for a mass assault on a gate, at least in universes where the flying cars still work.

There is some hope, if reason prevails, that the next volume could see a truce, following which both sides have their civil wars. After all, why is the supply of Emperor Chava's troops a bit light?

The simians and cetaceans might not use any form of advanced technology. However they do clearly have their own Talents; and that's at least as core to what Sharona is as combustion and explosives are.

[quote="DanNeely]

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The simians and cetaceans might not use any form of advanced technology. However they do clearly have their own Talents; and that's at least as core to what Sharona is as combustion and explosives are.[/quote]


Key universe tipping point -- Non-human sentient's with Talents, arriving.

Note also that Shylar hasn't mentioned -who- her mother was an ambassador to.

The Arcanians assume other Humans.

Shylar cannot imagine a world without non-human sentients.

Imagine Shylar's coming culture shock at Dragons and Sea Drakes hunting whales, which has not made it on-camera yet.

Also imagine the Arcanian's culture shock when they find out about non-human sentient's with talents...likely as Hell's Gate or other closer Sharona universes tip to Sharonan physical laws with Arcanians in them.

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I think some made a big mistake with the killing of the seascheal after the assinations attempts of the Calriath's. They are assuming that they were sucessfull in filling their two targets and trying a reset (i suspect) on the marriage. First one died in battle. Second one outmaneuved him. Thinking third time lucky.
Won't they be shocked to find out they both survived. (one to be determine yet) The other one knows lots of info that they were supposed to get.

Won't the arcana's be in shock when news finally reaches them about what truely has been going on at the front.

Wonder what will happen next. When can we get book #4?

phillies wrote:Notwithstanding minor advances...

it would appear that Sharona is in fact badly outmatched. they are a 1900 society up against a 2015 society that appears to have far more people and resources.

I wouldn't really characterize the Arcanans as a 2015 society. Their direct combat capabilities are probably not as good as ours - I suspect fighter planes and submarines would do a number on fighter dragons and sea drakes, and their worst spells sound no worse than nukes - but they have other advantages. I have no clue what djinns would equate to, but it sounds like releasing a few uncontrolled djinns (in a universe where their magic works) would be devastating. And who knows what else they have? They would probably roll right over the Sharonians in a world where both of their techs worked as normal, and that includes against orcas and whales.

But outside combat capability, they are far closer to a sci-fi tech society than a modern one. They have anti-grav, aircars, universal translators, spells to do things to cloth better than our chemicals can do, spells for keeping clothing pressed and instant hairdos, and who knows what else? I've been picturing being the one arriving at Portalis, and I think I'd have felt like I was transported to the future. In fact, the Arcanans are apparently far more advanced than I would have dreamed based on their survey crews. The capability difference between home and the frontier is significant more than for Sharonians, and I suspect considerably more than we would have.

Frankjg wrote:SPOILER

I think some made a big mistake with the killing of the seascheal after the assinations attempts of the Calriath's. They are assuming that they were sucessfull in filling their two targets and trying a reset (i suspect) on the marriage. First one died in battle. Second one outmaneuved him. Thinking third time lucky.
Won't they be shocked to find out they both survived. (one to be determine yet) The other one knows lots of info that they were supposed to get.

Won't the arcana's be in shock when news finally reaches them about what truely has been going on at the front.

Wonder what will happen next. When can we get book #4?

I'm not sure Chava would have held back killing the Seneschal if he'd known the attempt failed. The Seneschal is the only known person that can say that Chava was as much behind it as he was. With him dead, it will be far harder to find proof that Chava is to blame (since I'm assuming they can't question him under a Sifter with no evidence). The Seneschal was just a tool to Chava, and that tool needed to be discarded as soon as it became a liability.

As for resetting the marriage, I don't think that's what Chava had in mind. He sent the shark-Caller to the Seneschal; unless the Seneschal decided to change the plan from throwing Prince Howan overboard to throwing them both over and then blowing the yacht up, Chava couldn't have been planning to marry a son to Andrin. More likely the point was what the Seneschal thought before he died; an attempt to put Chava himself directly on the throne of Sharona. I suppose it's possible he figured one of the younger girls might survive, but it looks more like any planned marriage to the Caliraths would have to be for a collateral line, with the girl as just a consort. And he must know that no collateral line has produced the Glimpse Talent. In killing the only woman known on the planet to have that, he was also giving up the chance of his descendants having it. I wonder if he realized just how useful it is?

Though we did learn about a few neat Talents, like Calling and Masking. Calling and ctonrolling animals (as some Callers can apparently do, even if the shark-Caller can't) are significantly different than just talking to them, and much more coercive than Shaylar's attitude led me to think they would be.

I don't see the Arcanans rolling over Sharonians in any battle. We haven't seen any Arcanan weapon that can penetrate even light armor, and sharonian weapons significantly outrange any weapon in the Arcanan inventory. The best that can be said for Arcana is that they can choose most of the battles, and escape from the ones they don't want to fight.

As for changing a universe's physics to gain an advantage; we must take into account that Shaylar and Jathmar were in a universe with two million Arcanans before they noticed significant reduction in talent abilities. If that is the number imbalance required to shift physics then it isn't going to happen in a battle, unless the Sharonians invade that world.

Astelon wrote:I don't see the Arcanans rolling over Sharonians in any battle. We haven't seen any Arcanan weapon that can penetrate even light armor, and sharonian weapons significantly outrange any weapon in the Arcanan inventory. The best that can be said for Arcana is that they can choose most of the battles, and escape from the ones they don't want to fight.

That's only true as long as they keep the gloves on. They've made city killer nuke class spells in the past; the thermal and blast effects from something like that are quite lethal even without any armor penetration capabilities.

Astelon wrote:As for changing a universe's physics to gain an advantage; we must take into account that Shaylar and Jathmar were in a universe with two million Arcanans before they noticed significant reduction in talent abilities. If that is the number imbalance required to shift physics then it isn't going to happen in a battle, unless the Sharonians invade that world.

That was a passive effect. Gadrial was able to make Jathmar's rifle fire normally on Arcana after she figured out what what going on; locally managing to completely counter the counter pressure from billions of other people. Although this thread wasn't continued in the book past the test firing; it has a huge number of potential military applications both in being able to use magic deep in Sharona's rear area or in being able to shut of Sharonan weapons on the front lines.

If Arcana wants to go full nuclear, and if they can make enough nukes then they can win the war, so long as they can make the nukes work deeo in Sharonian territory.

As for Gadrial making the rifle work, her explanation had nothing to do with how a rifle actually functions. I figured the rifles would either work, or not work. That she could make it work with a magic based explanation is interesting; though I'm not sure what to make of it yet.