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Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention this

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Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention this
Post by Theemile   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:31 pm

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I was just reviewing some infodumps, and while reading an old one on Grav Lances, I came upon this from 1998:

Having said all of that, however, I will also add that I didn't toss the grav lance out there in the very first book without the intention of doing A Little Something with it further down the line. Of course, just exactly what I do with it is for me to know and for you to... well, you get the picture. (Snerk!)


We’ve all heard the stories – all too many times - Us old farts routinely slap down anybody who comes up with a brilliant idea to mount the Grav Lance on a Treecat’s marine armor as casually as if we’re breathing – David’s supposedly so sick of the ideas and silly uses that he’s changed his plans of using TWTSNBN in the future.

But… what was his original plan? and has he really abandoned it?

While reading that infodump, Those thoughts ran through my head again, and I asked myself where the Grav lance could have (or could in the future) be used – The trend in the Honorverse from the beginning of the storyline has moved away from energy range combat, so it’s paradigm is past. The Way David mentions the hardware, the future use seems to be a big deal - what needs THAT much foreshadowing?

Then it hit me – what other weapon system are we trying to piece together with little actual knowledge and find a place for in Combat? The Leonard Detweiler Capitol ships.

What if somehow THEY have TWTSNBN and, in addition to being pod layers with Graser torps, act as assassin ships, sneaking into close range under the spider and use their spider drive (or beta nodes) to knock down sidewalls, seconds before their massive ET batteries rip apart their targets to pieces, then slip away under the spider in the chaos. Their low speed makes that crazy – their drive system makes that improbable…
…but what if?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:46 pm

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Theemile wrote:I was just reviewing some infodumps, and while reading an old one on Grav Lances, I came upon this from 1998:

Having said all of that, however, I will also add that I didn't toss the grav lance out there in the very first book without the intention of doing A Little Something with it further down the line. Of course, just exactly what I do with it is for me to know and for you to... well, you get the picture. (Snerk!)
I have a vague recollection that RFC later said that due to the rabid focus on the grav lance that he'd abandoned his plans for it to come back as basis for a spin-off technology.
The day it would have seen daylight has come and gone (again, IIRC)
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Duckk   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:54 pm

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1. The grav lance has a range of only 100,000 km. Spider drive stealth is problematic at anything below 1 light second (300,000 km).

2. The grav lance is as much a modification of a ship's impeller drive as it is a weapon system. Spider drive ships don't have impeller wedges, so they can't use a grav lance.
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Duckk   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:04 pm

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Also, if you could reliably get that close to an unsuspecting target, there's really no point in the grav lance. At that range, getting the first salvos in by surprise would be more than enough of a tactical advantage.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:46 pm

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unmanned LAC's..... 'nuff said :lol: :lol:



David did say there's going to be a surge of unmanned drone craft after all, and both Shrikes and Ferrets have to get to that dangerously close knife-fighting ranges [I'm lumping Cimeterre-A's and -B's in with the Manticoran classes]


A few LAC sized drones should be just barely large enough for the grav lance, and being unmanned, no longer requires room for life support... now mounts the same levels of ECM as battlecruisers. Potentially enough to get it reliably into range to fire the lance, but because it's equipped with essentially nothing but ECM and grav lance, it's useless without supporting ships ready to take advantage.

Then manned LACs no longer have to get quite as close to burn through sidewall/bubblewall anymore, because it just got popped by the phantom drones while they were still almost a million km out... which means even Manticoran sensors would have trouble realizing Shrikes were inbound.
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by exiledtoIA   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:02 pm

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Threemile'
If I was in command of a ship and my sidewalls suddenly went down be assured that my first order is going to be "spray and pray".
I might not get you but I'm sure going to try.

I don't think the grav lance can be shrunk down to fit into an LAC sized package. Even by Manticore. Didn't they pretty much have to gut Fearless to fit it into a light cruiser? Well it and the plasma torpedoes.
Even of they can shrink the lance how do you power it? LAC's don't have nearly the energy budget of a "real" warship.
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:13 pm

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exiledtoIA wrote:Threemile'
If I was in command of a ship and my sidewalls suddenly went down be assured that my first order is going to be "spray and pray".
I might not get you but I'm sure going to try.

I don't think the grav lance can be shrunk down to fit into an LAC sized package. Even by Manticore. Didn't they pretty much have to gut Fearless to fit it into a light cruiser? Well it and the plasma torpedoes.
Even of they can shrink the lance how do you power it? LAC's don't have nearly the energy budget of a "real" warship.

It also needs a minimum strength of wedge to project the lance from. Even if you could somehow squeeze it into something the size of a LAC we've been told that even a Shrike's wedge is too weak to let you disrupt a starship's sidewall.

Whatever RFC was planning to do with the grav lance it's pretty clean it wasn't putting it into LACs. But we'll probably never know what the original plan was.
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Aegis99   » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:13 am

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I love how this topic so persistently refuses to die.

I would say it was no good as a weapon system, but if only ships could be armored in TWTSNB they would have no need for sidewalls because no matter how many holes you shoot into one they still keep coming back up :D
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Theemile   » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:07 am

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Duckk wrote:1. The grav lance has a range of only 100,000 km. Spider drive stealth is problematic at anything below 1 light second (300,000 km).

2. The grav lance is as much a modification of a ship's impeller drive as it is a weapon system. Spider drive ships don't have impeller wedges, so they can't use a grav lance.


I know, and I obliquely mentioned that. I never said it was a good plan...

However, we know that Spider ships can use wormholes, which requires sails - which in turn means (as far as we know) that Alpha nodes are needed. So a spider has to have alpha nodes OR has another technology to make sails to traverse wormholes. Could that be modified to make a Lance? Only David could know....

We also have been told that the spider is the derivative of a cast off branch of drive technology - what if it was related to the Grav lance?

It's all a stretch and I felt horrible for even mentioning it (because my reply to this email would have looked just like Duckk's), but the thought was festering and I had to get it out....
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Somtaaw   » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:51 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
exiledtoIA wrote:Threemile'
If I was in command of a ship and my sidewalls suddenly went down be assured that my first order is going to be "spray and pray".
I might not get you but I'm sure going to try.

I don't think the grav lance can be shrunk down to fit into an LAC sized package. Even by Manticore. Didn't they pretty much have to gut Fearless to fit it into a light cruiser? Well it and the plasma torpedoes.
Even of they can shrink the lance how do you power it? LAC's don't have nearly the energy budget of a "real" warship.

It also needs a minimum strength of wedge to project the lance from. Even if you could somehow squeeze it into something the size of a LAC we've been told that even a Shrike's wedge is too weak to let you disrupt a starship's sidewall.

Whatever RFC was planning to do with the grav lance it's pretty clean it wasn't putting it into LACs. But we'll probably never know what the original plan was.



-Minimum hull size: although, like you said, that was more for the energy torpedo launchers than the grav lance itself

-Minimum wedge strength: possibly problematic, but a dedicated unmanned could fit a much stronger wedge to its displacement, because you don't also have to fit compensators & life support. Possibly bump the Beta-squared to include Alpha's in the ring if necessary.

-Power requirement: again, a dedicated unmanned ship who's only purpose is grav lance, could do what a manned ship cant. Think of the Shrike, it's got a graser larger than Reliants and it powers the graser and three (four for Cutthroat) sidewalls, plus it's powerful ECM & stealth, life support, etc etc off it's one piddly fission pile.

Strip away all life support, the graser gets swapped to grav lance, more passive stealth ala Ghost Rider Drone instead of active (energy consuming) ECM... you'd probably have enough power to fit a Dazzler onto the drone itself too.


The only problem with fitting a grav lance, that might be insurmountable, was I think I saw "something something grav lance needs a minimum length between the impeller rings" and a CL was the shortest ship that could mount it.


Aegis99 wrote:I love how this topic so persistently refuses to die.


Well, the grav lance is like all those now captured SLN warships. They got dropped into the story, and we're all puzzling how these seemingly useless things get used. We're almost a think-tank, just thinkinng up possibilities. The more possibilities we can think up, the more likely we might inspire DW to figure out a way to do something to shut us all up :lol:
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