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Next Bolthole devellopment

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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:48 pm

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ChronicRder wrote:The RMN has essentially been fighting the SL since its first war with Haven. The tech transfers to Haven gave the Manties, and Hemphill, ample time and experience to address everything the League has militarily. Plus, they were able to deal with them in onesies and twosies as Haven got the tech and "reversed engineered" them. In short, the Manties have been kicking the League's can as much as they have kicked Haven's. The League, meanwhile, will have to deal with everything the GA can throw at them at once in addition to getting new ships and systems designed, built, etc etc. Nevermind trying to keep itself together as a unified confederacy style nation. In the words of Liam Neeson "good luck."
Plus the MAlign working on killing the SL from the inside, and the "guppy on the trade arteries" known as Laccoon II. What the MALign doesn't want is for the SLN to actually get to upgraded GA tech levels, ever.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:21 pm

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ChronicRder wrote:The RMN has essentially been fighting the SL since its first war with Haven. The tech transfers to Haven gave the Manties, and Hemphill, ample time and experience to address everything the League has militarily. Plus, they were able to deal with them in onesies and twosies as Haven got the tech and "reversed engineered" them. In short, the Manties have been kicking the League's can as much as they have kicked Haven's. The League, meanwhile, will have to deal with everything the GA can throw at them at once in addition to getting new ships and systems designed, built, etc etc. Nevermind trying to keep itself together as a unified confederacy style nation. In the words of Liam Neeson "good luck."



Good point about the history of Manticoran Navy and SL Tech. and when we see what Honor did, even with the infrastructure a smoldering ruin behind her... the prospects are good that the SLN and the Frontier Navy will be non-factors by the end of the next book
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by ChronicRder   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:12 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:
ChronicRder wrote:The RMN has essentially been fighting the SL since its first war with Haven. The tech transfers to Haven gave the Manties, and Hemphill, ample time and experience to address everything the League has militarily. Plus, they were able to deal with them in onesies and twosies as Haven got the tech and "reversed engineered" them. In short, the Manties have been kicking the League's can as much as they have kicked Haven's. The League, meanwhile, will have to deal with everything the GA can throw at them at once in addition to getting new ships and systems designed, built, etc etc. Nevermind trying to keep itself together as a unified confederacy style nation. In the words of Liam Neeson "good luck."



Good point about the history of Manticoran Navy and SL Tech. and when we see what Honor did, even with the infrastructure a smoldering ruin behind her... the prospects are good that the SLN and the Frontier Navy will be non-factors by the end of the next book


Couldn't agree more. Though I do see some examples of Sollie officers keeping things together, at least in part--an example like Admiral Rozsak comes to mind. Whether they form their own successor state to the League or not remains to be seen, however.

Back to Bolthole, I see one of the next developments being a reverse engineering of the Spider drive and putting them on either long range drones (like a Argus net that actually worked as intended) or refitting their LACs with them. Yes, yes, I know. Only an insane amount of luck let the Manties discover it, but the Peeps didn't know that. Throw a Ghost Rider FTL transmitter on it and with the Spider drive and may've worked better. Putting Spiders on LACs would give the "hyperless" vessels a way out if their carriers are destroyed in battle or all those assigned as system patrol craft the ability to become short-medium range fighters.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:35 pm

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ChronicRder wrote:
Back to Bolthole, I see one of the next developments being a reverse engineering of the Spider drive and putting them on either long range drones (like a Argus net that actually worked as intended) or refitting their LACs with them. Yes, yes, I know. Only an insane amount of luck let the Manties discover it, but the Peeps didn't know that. Throw a Ghost Rider FTL transmitter on it and with the Spider drive and may've worked better. Putting Spiders on LACs would give the "hyperless" vessels a way out if their carriers are destroyed in battle or all those assigned as system patrol craft the ability to become short-medium range fighters.

I'm not seeing how changing a LACs propulsion from wedge to spider would alter their ability to escape a system if their CLACs were destroyed.

In either case if they can reach hyper capable units before those flee (and the system's not in a grav wave) they can tractor onto those units and get jumped into hyper. Barring that the LACs are stuck in the system; no matter how stealthy they might be.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:43 am

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ChronicRder wrote:Back to Bolthole, I see one of the next developments being a reverse engineering of the Spider drive and putting them on either long range drones (like a Argus net that actually worked as intended) or refitting their LACs with them. Yes, yes, I know. Only an insane amount of luck let the Manties discover it, but the Peeps didn't know that. Throw a Ghost Rider FTL transmitter on it and with the Spider drive and may've worked better. Putting Spiders on LACs would give the "hyperless" vessels a way out if their carriers are destroyed in battle or all those assigned as system patrol craft the ability to become short-medium range fighters.


It's an intriguing idea, but LACs are currently very space limited. Replacing the wedge with a spider drive would reduce their acceleration from 800 or go Gs to 150 Gs and eliminate their ability to do FTL communication (no nodes,) while adding an additional drive would take up space they need for missiles and so on and so forth. It also might make them too big to fit on the current generation of CLACs. Also, RFC said that spider drive ships were built to a completely different design geometry from impeller drive ships - they have three keels, for example. I suspect a retrofit would be more expensive than simply designing a new class of craft.

I also don't see them building any spider drive ships at this time, other than as an experimental ship to work on spider drive detectors, which are a really high priority. The GA doesn't really want to engage in "invisible starship" hit and run raids, or at least they don't need to.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:29 am

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Bang for the buck? how about a multiplied amount of upgraded and maxed out Sag-C variants, given that the Mars-D in some listings is about the same size, right? Then include whatever cross fertilization technical wizardry and defensive wizardry that Hemphill and Forraker can come up with. Back them up with Astra size missile colliers with Grayson-style compensators? We already know the SLN can't stand up to them, right?

That's 20 C's per weight of an Invictus but can do all of the multimodal things that a cruiser is good at, in many more locations... Thoughts?
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by ChronicRder   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:11 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
ChronicRder wrote:Back to Bolthole, I see one of the next developments being a reverse engineering of the Spider drive and putting them on either long range drones (like a Argus net that actually worked as intended) or refitting their LACs with them. Yes, yes, I know. Only an insane amount of luck let the Manties discover it, but the Peeps didn't know that. Throw a Ghost Rider FTL transmitter on it and with the Spider drive and may've worked better. Putting Spiders on LACs would give the "hyperless" vessels a way out if their carriers are destroyed in battle or all those assigned as system patrol craft the ability to become short-medium range fighters.


It's an intriguing idea, but LACs are currently very space limited. Replacing the wedge with a spider drive would reduce their acceleration from 800 or go Gs to 150 Gs and eliminate their ability to do FTL communication (no nodes,) while adding an additional drive would take up space they need for missiles and so on and so forth. It also might make them too big to fit on the current generation of CLACs. Also, RFC said that spider drive ships were built to a completely different design geometry from impeller drive ships - they have three keels, for example. I suspect a retrofit would be more expensive than simply designing a new class of craft.

I also don't see them building any spider drive ships at this time, other than as an experimental ship to work on spider drive detectors, which are a really high priority. The GA doesn't really want to engage in "invisible starship" hit and run raids, or at least they don't need to.


That may very well be true. I hadn't quite considered all that. I was going off the other theme RFC has been very keen on in regards to the MAlignment and the GA. Mesans, and their affiliates, genetically engineer everyone in their society. Meaning the theorists, physicists, and other developers of the Spider affiliated systems were designed to do that kind of thing...and Detweiller has said in the texts that they can't match the ingenuity and sheer audacity of the Manties (and later Foraker can be implied in that group too). Furthermore, that the only way they could match that would be to allow for the free exchange of ideas between what passes for their caste system and allow everyone the opportunity to pass or fail on their own.

That ideal and theme, so central to the Manties ability to seize the initiative and innovate politically, economically, industrially, socially, and militarily is the antithesis of Mesa's society which is literally designed. Everyone is a cog in some astronomically huge machine that requires every single part to function as intended and only as intended. There's no room for true innovation there like there is in the Empire or even the reborn Republic of Haven.

That is where my idea concerning the revamping of the LACs came from. I have no science behind it other than shark equipped warships are at a distinct disadvantage except for ideal, one-time only situations like the Yawata Strike/Oyster Bay. LACs, not being true warships, could have a new class designed to incorporate the Spider tech best, in my opinion. The could survive longer, even after their motherships are destroyed, by simply not being bound to a single star system anymore, at least theoretically. Now, the question of supplies might be an issue, but the capability would be there. It's enough to war-game at least, no?
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:58 am

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ChronicRder wrote:]That is where my idea concerning the revamping of the LACs came from. I have no science behind it other than shark equipped warships are at a distinct disadvantage except for ideal, one-time only situations like the Yawata Strike/Oyster Bay. LACs, not being true warships, could have a new class designed to incorporate the Spider tech best, in my opinion. The could survive longer, even after their motherships are destroyed, by simply not being bound to a single star system anymore, at least theoretically. Now, the question of supplies might be an issue, but the capability would be there. It's enough to war-game at least, no?

How does a spider drive allow them to theoretically leave a star system???

You still need a hyper generator to get into hyper. And a LAC is still too small to mount one.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:53 am

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Before you can reverse engineer a Spider Drive you have to actually have one to be the example. That hasn't happened yet. If you are going to work on improvements or different designes for LACs you would be sticking with what you have for a bit.
Then there is the whole problem of no industry to produce the components and build any new LACs.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:02 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Before you can reverse engineer a Spider Drive you have to actually have one to be the example. That hasn't happened yet. If you are going to work on improvements or different designes for LACs you would be sticking with what you have for a bit.
Then there is the whole problem of no industry to produce the components and build any new LACs.


I agree with this and I don't recall that the alliance has any drives... they do have the man that designed them however and that combining him with Hemphill and Shannon ought to put a variation of the drive into the alliance hands quickly... In the discussion thread about jobs for treecats, I theorized that 'cats ought to do well in highly stealthed ships as scouts and spies with that, I thought that modified LAC's could be dropped off like a few pods from a ship of the wall as they insert into a system and then do what cats do so well, slink around and report back when they find something hidden.

Some time in the next book, the navy will need to follow up on the exploration ship that went through the wormhole near Torch and got jumped and destroyed.

This would be the perfect place to use such observation ships and what poetic justice to smash the MAlignment with their own tech and methods.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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