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Hot Air Balloons

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by n7axw   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:37 pm

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martin wrote:Both sides have rifles and angle guns. So any balloons or blimps would need to be kept well away from the enemy. They could be useful for spotting but not for bombing.

Only advanced airships that can fly very high could hope to evade ground fire. They could be used for recon purposes and possibly bombing, but they have limited lift capacity, unless they are really huge. R101 anyone?


Mmm... Not sure getting them to fly high would be the issue. They can probably do that. The issue would be more about control. Once the thing is beyond the reach of a rope to the ground, you have to be able to make it go where you want and vary the height. Those problems are not neccessarily insolvable. But they are a bit more complicated than making the balloon go high.

Don

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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:00 pm

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martin wrote:Both sides have rifles and angle guns. So any balloons or blimps would need to be kept well away from the enemy. They could be useful for spotting but not for bombing.

Only advanced airships that can fly very high could hope to evade ground fire. They could be used for recon purposes and possibly bombing, but they have limited lift capacity, unless they are really huge. R101 anyone?


I would like to point out that both sides in WW1 used lighter than air craft. On the French/German front observation balloons were in regular use - Aircraft were used to shoot them down using incendiary rounds.

From Wikipedia about Balloon Bustingin WW1:
"Although balloons were occasionally shot down by small-arms fire, generally it was difficult to shoot down a balloon with solid bullets, particularly at the distances and altitude involved. Ordinary bullets would pass relatively harmlessly through the hydrogen gas bag, merely holing the fabric. Hits on the wicker car could however kill the observer.

One method employed was the solid-fuel Le Prieur rocket invented by Frenchman Lt. Yves Le Prieur and first used in April 1916. Rockets were attached to each outboard strut of a biplane fighter aircraft and fired through steel tubes using an electrical trigger. The rockets' inaccuracy was such that pilots had to fly very close to their target before firing.[1]

It was not until special Pomeroy incendiary bullets and Buckingham flat-nosed incendiary bullets became available on the Western Front in 1917 that any consistent degree of success was achieved. Le Prieur rockets were withdrawn from service in 1918 once incendiary bullets had become available."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_buster
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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by Laenole   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:42 am

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Evilauthor wrote:

No? Howsmyn's factories are using gas lighting now and producing enough spare gas to light up Tellesberg. And to ensure constant gas lightning (especially to places like Tellesberg which PROBABLY doesn't have a gas/oil/whatever well in it), they need to be able to store it.

And if gas needs to be transported in quantity from the places that make them without a pipe system (aka, by ship), they're going to have to be shipped in man portable format, aka tanks small enough to carried by a balloon.

So storing and burning gas are solved problems as far as Charis is concerned. The only thing missing is someone coming up with the idea of using hot air exhaust to lift balloons... and possibly a ruling that hot air flight doesn't violate the Proscriptions


I should have thrown more details to my objections to a hot air balloon. The efficiency of a hot air balloon depends on the BTU (heat)) that you can generate for the amount of fuel you can carry. Modern balloons use liquefied propane gas (LPG) as the most efficient fuel. Propane is obtained from natural gas wells. Natural gas wells primarily contain methane and ethane with minor amounts of propane and longer chain alkanes. The gas lights in Charis I believe primarily operate on coal gas form the coking ovens. This gas is primarily hydrogen with minor amounts of calbon monoxide and alkanes (methane, ethane, propane, butane….).

What are the physical properties that make propane the fuel of choice? LPG can be liquefied at 100F at 177 pounds per square inch (psi). Set quantities (like a cylinder full) of natural gas must be transported compressed (CNG) or cooled to its liquid state (LNG). LPG is 3.5 more efficient than CNG according to Wiki propane page. LNG must be kept at around -260F at around 1 atmosphere. Since coal gas is primarily hydrogen its boiling point is even lower at around -420F. Thus you can see that LNG is the only practical way of transporting a fuel that acts as a gas.

What are the difficulties involved in using propane besides any engineering problems in designing a burner? (I am a chemist not an engineer) Propane is available from natural gas wells or from petroleum refining, neither of which is currently in Charis’s portfolio. It would probably take years to develop either industry to the point where LPG could be produced even with Merlin’s guidance. There are more critical uses for the main material already.

How about a vegetable oil burner for the hot air balloon? Heat wise straight vegetable oil is 13% less efficient than LPG. Kerosene or gasoline is around 10% less efficient than LPG. Vegetable oil is available now, but it could pose engineering problems due to its viscosity. This would be not be a problem with but would need oil drilling and refining to be developed. They are natural by-products of duel oil-diesel production that would be the main initial fractions needed for the war effort. Safehold vine oil may be useful.

In comparison to a hydrogen balloon, which can be initially made by using the coal gas directly, a hot air balloon must be 3.5 times the size to lift the same weight. The greater5 cross section would also be a hindrance in handling in the air from winds or during power flight. The bigger the balloon the longer it takes to initially deploy and recover. These are the main reasons the French revolutionaries and Union balloonists used hydrogen rather than hot air.

Laenole
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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:50 pm

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I would like to point out that both sides in WW1 used lighter than air craft. On the French/German front observation balloons were in regular use - Aircraft were used to shoot them down using incendiary rounds.

From Wikipedia about Balloon Bustingin WW1:
"Although balloons were occasionally shot down by small-arms fire, generally it was difficult to shoot down a balloon with solid bullets, particularly at the distances and altitude involved. Ordinary bullets would pass relatively harmlessly through the hydrogen gas bag, merely holing the fabric. Hits on the wicker car could however kill the observer.


Some things that need to be said about vulnerability regarding recon balloons in WWI.

First of all, they were tethered well behind friendly lines.

Secondly, a standard defense if enemy fighters were giving it too much attention was to simply haul the balloon down ASAP, which was actually a quick thing to do.

Thirdly, balloon tether sites were DEFENDED, often by multiple machineguns(both against air and ground), infantry and sometimes even by artillery and heavy antiair guns.

They were commonly hard to shoot down with light weapons because they were almost always far enough from enemy troops that rifles were shooting in noticeable arcs, so hitting was rather random.

If enemy infantry could get within a thousand yards unseen, a balloon was usually "dead", and if the observers in it were lucky, the ground crew would have time to pull it down before leakages had it crashing down instead of being pulled down.
Often causing a difficult dilemma for the observers, hope that the ground crew gets it down before it crashes, or jump out with parachutes and hope they´re not already too close to the ground for the chutes to deploy.

Neither balloon observer crews, nor especially pilots attacking balloons had much of a life expectancy. Balloons were heavily defended targets, because they were important targets.


For shooting down the zeppelin I would just say that other than angle guns all of the artillery have a very small amount of elevation and would not be that useful for hitting the zeppelin. And if the zeppelin was high enough it would not be reachable and even if it was smoothbores would not pose that much of a threat mostly based off of the fact that zeppelin bombers worked against Britain in WWI. Not well I will admit but they were able to resist a lot of damage.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin# ... orld_War_I
Early offensive operations by Army airships revealed that they were extremely vulnerable to ground fire unless flown at high altitude, and several were lost.


Also, it should be very much noted that airships are not entirely easy things to fly high with. When WWI started, the operational ceiling for existing military Zeppelins in Germany was ~6000 feet.

Remember, airships "float" in the air, the higher you go, the thinner the air is and the less effective that floatation is(or you end up with the gas cell expanding to the point where it bursts).

In late 1916 the limit was raised to 13000 feet.
The later so called "climbers" could routinely manage 20000 feet. However, their usefulness was greatly affected by problems caused by the altitude, oxygen deprivated crew, severe cold, frozen radiators, congealed oil, cracked windows, pipes snapping or leaking from cracked seals...
Pretty much no end to the issues. And probably more dangerous to fly than for anyone you try to attack with them.


And in regards to "smoothbore", well you may wish to remember that most of todays tank guns are smoothbore, and there´s no real reason against anyone building that kind of guns with simpler tech.
Getting a good highspeed, long ranged subcaliber shot to work wont be the easiest of things to do, but it´s certainly not impossible.

Also, making cannons so they can be used as antiair weapons? Not hard at all.
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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by captinjoehenry   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:02 pm

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Good points all. It is apparent that zeppelins do not make very good weapons at all. Thanks for pointing me to the articles about it!
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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by gamarus   » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:05 am

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captinjoehenry wrote:


Now for the helium versus hydrogen I will admit I do not know enough to say how easy it will be to get helium or hydrogen for a zeppelin.

For the cost you are almost certainly right and I do not know enough to estimate it.


Helium as a gas is too light to be kept in our atmosphere and thus any we find are essentially from radioactive decay of heavy elements (alpha-radiation is a helium nucleus).
At the same time it's a very small molecule and thus there's really only a few geological structures that allows for the retention of the gas. All that combines to make helium fairly inaccessible especially as no-one has started drilling any holes for hydrocarbons.
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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:28 pm

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gamarus wrote:
captinjoehenry wrote:


Now for the helium versus hydrogen I will admit I do not know enough to say how easy it will be to get helium or hydrogen for a zeppelin.

For the cost you are almost certainly right and I do not know enough to estimate it.


Helium as a gas is too light to be kept in our atmosphere and thus any we find are essentially from radioactive decay of heavy elements (alpha-radiation is a helium nucleus).
At the same time it's a very small molecule and thus there's really only a few geological structures that allows for the retention of the gas. All that combines to make helium fairly inaccessible especially as no-one has started drilling any holes for hydrocarbons.


And especially to people whose only knowledge of chemistry is a list of rote learned "mix these to get that" recipes with no understanding (or at least they're not supposed to have understanding) of the actual underlying processes they're messing with.

There are different types of air? Okay, coal gas burns, so the concept isn't entirely foreign to the public. But if you're not in the Inner Circle, how do you figure out something like helium even exists? Hydrogen at least is flamable and IIRC there's some chemical processes that will produce gaseous hydrogen without using electricity.
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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by gamarus   » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:54 am

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evilauthor wrote:
gamarus wrote:Helium as a gas is too light to be kept in our atmosphere and thus any we find are essentially from radioactive decay of heavy elements (alpha-radiation is a helium nucleus).
At the same time it's a very small molecule and thus there's really only a few geological structures that allows for the retention of the gas. All that combines to make helium fairly inaccessible especially as no-one has started drilling any holes for hydrocarbons.


And especially to people whose only knowledge of chemistry is a list of rote learned "mix these to get that" recipes with no understanding (or at least they're not supposed to have understanding) of the actual underlying processes they're messing with.

There are different types of air? Okay, coal gas burns, so the concept isn't entirely foreign to the public. But if you're not in the Inner Circle, how do you figure out something like helium even exists? Hydrogen at least is flamable and IIRC there's some chemical processes that will produce gaseous hydrogen without using electricity.


Plenty of reactions producing hydrogen. Most common are acid reactions with metals.
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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by cralkhi   » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:11 pm

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Keith_w wrote:From Wikipedia about Balloon Bustingin WW1:
"Although balloons were occasionally shot down by small-arms fire, generally it was difficult to shoot down a balloon with solid bullets, particularly at the distances and altitude involved. Ordinary bullets would pass relatively harmlessly through the hydrogen gas bag, merely holing the fabric."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_buster



Which suggests that hydrogen zeppelins were not in practice as super-flammable as all that. (IIRC the publicity surrounding the Hindenburg disaster rather distorted the statistics. I think storms were a larger danger to zeppelins - they destroyed the major US ones, despite helium.)
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Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by cralkhi   » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:14 pm

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Laenole wrote:I should have thrown more details to my objections to a hot air balloon. The efficiency of a hot air balloon depends on the BTU (heat)) that you can generate for the amount of fuel you can carry. Modern balloons use liquefied propane gas (LPG) as the most efficient fuel. Propane is obtained from natural gas wells.


Sure, but hot air balloons can nonetheless be made at a pretty low tech. The Montgolfiers did it in the 1780s and China used (too small to carry a human) balloons as signals 1500+ years earlier.
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