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Fortress Command

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Re: Fortress Command
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:18 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Think I'm starting to ramble, so in a nutshell, forts are too subordinate to waste on just best and brightest, but in the right place to babysit officers you can't necessarily trust fully with a ship, let alone entire squadrons. Only so much trouble even Elvis Santino can cause commanding a fortress, before someone slapped him down for failing to be ready.

Failure to be ready probably is the cardinal sin for a fortress commander. They're units that need to be ready, at any time, with no notice - at least during their active shifts. For years on end, day in and day out, ready at seconds' notice. That's demanding, but it's a different demand than hyper-capable warships have, where Honor reminds herself that there's always at least a little time to think and it's important to take it and use it.

The sort of personality and command style that would shine in one arena may do poorly at best in the other, in either direction. Captain No-Imagination, Cannot-Be-Bored, Hairtrigger-Accurate-Judgment is going to do very badly placed where a Harrington, Oversteegen, or Terekhov will shine and credit the Star Empire. Put one of them in command of a fortress and they are likely to leave Her Majesty's Navy in mental health self defense in months, if they don't make a very bad mistake first.

Well it occurs to me that there are forts and then there are forts. The kind of hair trigger perfect response does describe the job of Junction/Terminus forts, or any other forts hung out beyond a hyper limit.
But forts providing planetary defense are likely to have lots of time to watch an enemy attack roll down on them before the firing starts; even in the era of MDMs.

I'd think that you'd want your very best suited on the more exposed forts, even at the possible expense of forts deep inside the hyper limit.
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:37 pm

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cthia wrote:I understand where you're coming from. However, I think you're being too dismissive. The Navy is an all encompassing employer of talents. When I say that the position calls for the best of the best, I stand by it. The mistake you're making is in forgetting the different areas of command.


I think there is some confusion regarding Navy and Astro Control -- they are not the same and unrelated except for the fact that both use the same rank structure.

Fortress Command is a Navy function. Astro Control is a civilian agency.

I'm not sure if the Navy's policy of rotating officers through different commands and staff positions applies to Fortress Command or not. Logically, it should. But that would mean that an Elvis Santino and/or Pavel Young would eventually rotated into command of a Fortress or Fortress Division, or even <shudder> all of Fortress Command! That would be an utter disaster; having someone of that ilk with a finger on the trigger of that much fire-power would be just asking for an interstellar incident.
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by jchilds   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:49 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:I understand where you're coming from. However, I think you're being too dismissive. The Navy is an all encompassing employer of talents. When I say that the position calls for the best of the best, I stand by it. The mistake you're making is in forgetting the different areas of command.


I think there is some confusion regarding Navy and Astro Control -- they are not the same and unrelated except for the fact that both use the same rank structure.

Fortress Command is a Navy function. Astro Control is a civilian agency.

I'm not sure if the Navy's policy of rotating officers through different commands and staff positions applies to Fortress Command or not. Logically, it should. But that would mean that an Elvis Santino and/or Pavel Young would eventually rotated into command of a Fortress or Fortress Division, or even <shudder> all of Fortress Command! That would be an utter disaster; having someone of that ilk with a finger on the trigger of that much fire-power would be just asking for an interstellar incident.


Pfffft. Imagine a Byng clone in Fortress Command.
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:45 am

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jchilds wrote:Pfffft. Imagine a Byng clone in Fortress Command.


I'd rather not. I have enough trouble sleeping as it is. :(
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by kzt   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:21 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
jchilds wrote:Pfffft. Imagine a Byng clone in Fortress Command.


I'd rather not. I have enough trouble sleeping as it is. :(

He'd be OK. Still incompetent, but wouldn't do anything insane. Unless you are assigned to run the whole thing (which nobody would do) you are pretty much always operating under the observation of a senior officer, either your squadron CO or however squadrons of forts are organized.
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:34 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
I think there is some confusion regarding Navy and Astro Control -- they are not the same and unrelated except for the fact that both use the same rank structure.

Fortress Command is a Navy function. Astro Control is a civilian agency.

I'm not sure if the Navy's policy of rotating officers through different commands and staff positions applies to Fortress Command or not. Logically, it should. But that would mean that an Elvis Santino and/or Pavel Young would eventually rotated into command of a Fortress or Fortress Division, or even <shudder> all of Fortress Command! That would be an utter disaster; having someone of that ilk with a finger on the trigger of that much fire-power would be just asking for an interstellar incident.

Could be. I think a worse thing about a Santino or a Young in a Fortress Command position is their laziness, followed by poisonous treatment of subordinates. Likelihood of exercising terrible judgment with too much firepower is present, but it's got so much worse higher on the list just because the rest of it is certain to operate all the time.

A lot of the experience to be had in mobile commands wouldn't apply in Fortress Command and vice versa. Managing the ship out of shipboard stores, dealing with foreign navies and governments, astrogation - you wouldn't be getting any of those in Fortress Command. Preparation for using bubble sidewalls in combat, low-speed maneuvers under wedge, drilling based on very little warning and at enemy-selected ranges (for junction forts), drills to defend planets against hypothetical EE violators (for near-planetary ones) - all things the mobile sorts needn't practice.

One thing that having personnel do shifts in Fortress Command would do: as much as the ships on station or in transit conduct drills, Fortress Command probably does even more, just because of the extraordinary preparedness the junction forts have to have and maintain at all times just in case. To the extent that time served in the one carries over to practical experience in the other, it'd double as an intense training period. Silesian tours will blood crews and give them typical "real world" experience; Junction fort time will give them snap.
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:18 am

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cthia wrote:I understand where you're coming from. However, I think you're being too dismissive. The Navy is an all encompassing employer of talents. When I say that the position calls for the best of the best, I stand by it. The mistake you're making is in forgetting the different areas of command. Everyone won't aspire to a hyper command. Everyone doesn't want it. Some people really rather be the Center and not the Quarterback. Doesn't mean the Center isn't the best of the best. Everyone doesn't wish to be groomed for hyper command. Some want to be engineers.




Exhibit A: Second Adler, Manticoran force commander a Commodore Yeargin, Havenite force commander a certain Admiral Tourville, battle plan by a certain young Havenite officer named Foraker?

Yeargin knew she was supposed to be actively patrolling, and what she really did was detach a mere 3 destroyers and relied entirely on deployed sensor drones.

And the entire point of that system, was a watchdog helping guard not only Yeltsin but Grendlesbane (no small system to be guarding). And this was under the Mourncreek & Caparelli Admiralty, not a Janacek Admiralty. And was also a time, when the Alliance was still fighting strong and hard (mostly still pushing the pace to take Trevor's Star)

There was no excuse (excluding plot) for such a lazy Commodore, that even her peers that initially heard about the ambush, outright derided Yeargin's stupidity and in front of junior officers to boot.


Young is an extreme case, but a Santino or Yeargin in a fort command, singular not a fort squadron, would hardly be in a place to affect anything more than the one fort. And because their senior, mobile commander would be in a place to demand readiness reports on a regular basis... they couldn't botch training much, or risk being yanked for a possible courtmartial in time of war.


Santino's mistakes could have been far less impacting.... if he'd had a superior, in system, that he had to regularly feed readiness reports to. The only people who knew he was unprepared, were subordinates who could not bring it up without getting their junior ranks thrown in their face. He did the same thing on HMS War maiden, until he got called out on his specific actions (and lack of following specific orders).


The Manticore Junction itself, would demand only the creme ala creme of your Fortress commanders. But forts in other locations like planets, bases & shipyards, and other locations seem important, but are Siberia outposts. Somewhere to shuffle off politically connected, but militarily inept officers without being obviously sent to a Siberia.

Take for example Basilisk, circa OBS, was Siberia and everyone in the Fleet knew it was Siberia. But there was bound to be another location that wasn't obviously such, Hemphill wrangled the Basilisk deployment because she wanted Honor to know she was being punished for Honor's failure to be better with the grav lance. Honor not being politically connected, or friends in high places, it was safe to be openly insulting and derisive towards her, because she had no way to lash back safely.
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by Dafmeister   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:56 am

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Somtaaw wrote:Take for example Basilisk, circa OBS, was Siberia and everyone in the Fleet knew it was Siberia. But there was bound to be another location that wasn't obviously such, Hemphill wrangled the Basilisk deployment because she wanted Honor to know she was being punished for Honor's failure to be better with the grav lance. Honor not being politically connected, or friends in high places, it was safe to be openly insulting and derisive towards her, because she had no way to lash back safely.


I can't remember where it is, but I believe there's textev that Hemphill had nothing to do with Fearless being sent to Basilisk. She only ever intended the ship to be testbed, not an active-duty warship. I believe it was Janacek who ordered the Basilisk deployment - as Hemphill's cousin, he felt embarrassed by the public failure of her idea, and being a petty man (unlike Hemphill who is a professional, if a frequently obnoxious one) he abused his position to punish Honor for it.
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by Duckk   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:59 am

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Dafmeister wrote:I can't remember where it is, but I believe there's textev that Hemphill had nothing to do with Fearless being sent to Basilisk. She only ever intended the ship to be testbed, not an active-duty warship. I believe it was Janacek who ordered the Basilisk deployment - as Hemphill's cousin, he felt embarrassed by the public failure of her idea, and being a petty man (unlike Hemphill who is a professional, if a frequently obnoxious one) he abused his position to punish Honor for it.


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/37/1
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Fortress Command
Post by Dafmeister   » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:26 pm

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Duckk wrote:
Dafmeister wrote:I can't remember where it is, but I believe there's textev that Hemphill had nothing to do with Fearless being sent to Basilisk. She only ever intended the ship to be testbed, not an active-duty warship. I believe it was Janacek who ordered the Basilisk deployment - as Hemphill's cousin, he felt embarrassed by the public failure of her idea, and being a petty man (unlike Hemphill who is a professional, if a frequently obnoxious one) he abused his position to punish Honor for it.


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/37/1


That's the one, cheers Duckk. I think there's something in one of the later books where Honor hears Hemphill's side of the story in person, after she gets back from Cerberus, but I can't be sure.

I think the impression that Hemphill had Fearless sent to Basilisk comes from OBS, where Honor and her crew think that's what happened, and we see it from their PoV.
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