Fortress Command

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Someone asked why Beowulf would pay to support Junction
Forts after Manticore's planets fell to Haven.

All Termini of a Junction are effectively next to each
other. Therefore a Junction might be ruled from *any*
Terminus.
Especially the one with the strongest nearby Polity!

Beowulf might pay for those forts,
as a part of taking control of that Junction!

For that matter, once the Manticore-Beowulf Route was
found, Beowulf (then *very* much stronger) might have
turned Manticore into a vassal state at any time before
Manticore grew its navy larger than Beowulf's.


HTM

So you think that if Haven had started to win the war, Beowulf would have captured the Junction as a whole?

I doubt that Beowulf would have involved itself in the war whether Haven was about to Capture the Junction or not. Besides the forts might be in a hard place when the Queen orders them to surrender after all of the space infrastructure is captured or destroyed and Home Fleet is nothing but a memory.

Sigs wrote:As for the policy under the High Ridge government, that was pure and simple arrogance. They though they had the technological edge and needed the funds to buy off their supporters.

They pretty much had drawn down the fortresses, so that one of the first things done by the new government was ordering and deploying new junction defenses per the thoughts of the late CO of Home fleet in AAC.

The other issue with the junction in particular is that you are outside the hyperlimit. So you can get an attacker emerging within energy range at any aspect. Which is why the forts use a bubble sidewall that is kept up with fully automated point defenses when they are the active group. Bubble sidewalls are difficult to fin into hyper capable warships and those that have tried have apparently been notably unsuccessful.

Sigs wrote:

pnakasone wrote:
Ah but remember that until the fall of the High Ridge government that in the SKM the House of Lords controlled the purse strings it had more then enough "liberal or insular conservative" members to severely limit the spending on more SDs.

Was the limit on ships or military spending in general? I think the political aspect is a little overplayed. Granted it would have been hard but I don't think ultimately impossible. From my understanding the fight was military spending period rather than allowing spending for forts but no spending for mobile ships.

The problem is that when the military or any government agency for that matter is given a budget by its government it is already allotted to what it can be spent on. Even worse they are often told who they have to buy their stuff from. Very rarely do they have any money they can spend with out some sort of strings attached.

Sigs wrote:
I doubt that Beowulf would have involved itself in the war whether Haven was about to Capture the Junction or not. Besides the forts might be in a hard place when the Queen orders them to surrender after all of the space infrastructure is captured or destroyed and Home Fleet is nothing but a memory.

I disagree. OFS would have found the opportunity to grab the junction almost irresistible. And being essentially forcible incorporated into the SL beats getting conquered by the Peeps under the committee. Plus it's great PR for the SL - "We stopped the pointless war", etc. it certainly far from ideal for the SKM, but you have to take what you can get....

I suggested to David that SLM might politically unify with Beowulf if they were clearly going down, his response was that he'd never really thought about how they could mitigate a decisive defeat, as he knew they were going to win.

Sigs wrote:

pnakasone wrote:
Ah but remember that until the fall of the High Ridge government that in the SKM the House of Lords controlled the purse strings it had more then enough "liberal or insular conservative" members to severely limit the spending on more SDs.

Was the limit on ships or military spending in general? I think the political aspect is a little overplayed. Granted it would have been hard but I don't think ultimately impossible. From my understanding the fight was military spending period rather than allowing spending for forts but no spending for mobile ships.

My read, based on the party positions described in the early books is that there were plenty of Lords who were against foreign military adventuring (Liberals) or concerned about provoking Haven (Conservatives) to make.funding for SDs some of the hardest to come by. Forts, DDs and CLs especially seem unlikely to do either. Forts having no out of system offensive capability and the light units being capable of anti-piracy work and merchant protection while not being strong enough to allow for adventuring or concerning the neighbors.
So I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in the early years of the buildup, it was possible to get funding for forts but impossible to get those funds for SDs or DNs instead.
Politically the allocation was probably nearly as important as the raw amount.

Beowulf would have had physical posession of the Sigma Draconis terminus and a fairly good SDF. It was also a League member and could have arranged for considerabley more than just nominal support by the SLN if/when Haven launched an attack to at the Manticore Home System.

Not the least of things happening would have been at least couriers sent through all the outbound lanes with messages to the commands at the other ends as to what was happening- so far- and to allies such as Beowulf. I would suspect that there were various plan scenarios at Beowulf, Hennesy, etc to take steps to secure their own systems plus look to the terminus as potential targets or to take whatever steps possible to dampen the effect of Haven taking the Junction.

Whatever the problems Beowulf had previously identified with the League and the SLN, it would not have been shy about using the SLN to counter a very real threat when Haven went after the Manticore Home System. Haven, through most of the war, wasn't really up to dealing with 300 SD's and supporting lighter combat units showing up on their doorstetp. Having even 50 SLN ships arrive in support of the "picket" that would be posted to support/enforce the Sigma Darconis Corp (or whatever name) and it's end of the worm hole would give Haven pause. There is, after all a limit to what could be sent through the wormhole and once Beowulf knew Haven was fighting in and around the Manticore system, it would still have to face BSDF forces (including wallers) at the Beowulf end. The term "ducks in a row" comes to mind. Unless Haven had previously sent a significant fleet via hyperspace (a LONG trip, longer than Raging Justice to Manticore) to take the terminus from the Beowlf end---and probably guaranteeing a war (declared or not) with the SL-- they would have a tough time – taking/keeping the terminus.

Neither. A budget is parliamentary authorisation to spend X dollars on Y specific items. Things like manpower tend to be block figures with a cap on total strength, so you could easily pay the salaries of an extra 5 Admirals by not recruiting the 200 spacers needed to get 8 ships up to full complement - nobody is going notice details like that.

Military procurement, however, is always very, very specific. Fixed by - usually, in peacetime - very public line by line political combat that results in very specific instructions on what is to be spent and what may be purchased with it. If you are authorised 14 SDs, 12 DNs and 10 forts, you are welcome to build 12 SDs, 12 DNs and 10 forts because it turns out that the money for the 14 SDs will only actually cover 12.7 of them. You _cannot_ build 8 forts and 8 DNs and use the rest to build 18 SDs - not without going to jail, you won't, and the orders will be cancelled anyway.

If you want to see the process played out, in excruciating detail, just watch Congress or Parliament. Actually, the same thing is going on in Russia or China. It's just that nobody gets to see the numbers.

Sigs wrote:

pnakasone wrote:
Ah but remember that until the fall of the High Ridge government that in the SKM the House of Lords controlled the purse strings it had more then enough "liberal or insular conservative" members to severely limit the spending on more SDs.

Was the limit on ships or military spending in general? I think the political aspect is a little overplayed. Granted it would have been hard but I don't think ultimately impossible. From my understanding the fight was military spending period rather than allowing spending for forts but no spending for mobile ships.

cthia wrote:I don't get the feeling that Astro Command is a Siberia posting either. It demands the best of the best. An Elvis Santino would not have his people well oiled and drilled. What's the use of having forts if the crew is inadequate, slow to respond, can't think on their own and cannot function in unprecedented circumstances? Like my sweetheart Stephania the Grimm reaper.

Instead of being ordered to that post, I would think that the brightest and best-fitting officers are approached and asked to volunteer. Much like Truman and Abigail. It's too important a posting.

I agree that Fort Command is no Siberia, but it's not something you waste your best and brightest on either. Prior to Silesia being carved up between the SEM/Andermani, Manticore sent promising (so best and brightest) captains there to blood them in anti-piracy.


While you cannot send all your good officers on that sort of plum, you also have a much larger supply of "generally competent, but should not be allowed independent command" officers.

Forts, at least in Manticore itself, fall under the command of the Fleet Admiral commanding Home Fleet. I could imagine the same thing applies to Grendlesbane ; the Peeps attacked, it was Admiral Higgins who called the shots and NOT the base commander. Grayson, pre- and post-Alliance, forts has always been commanded by their Home Fleet CO, and even the Havenites did it such as Barnett (just after Theisman had left for Haven).

Lots of good evidence that fortress' get put under command of someone else, which means that even a Santino or Young, is going to be AT BEST a squadron commander, and more likely a divisional CO. They will always have someone dictating strategy to them, and coming down like a hammer to anvil over readiness reports showing forts not ready to fight. Take for example, Santino during Honor's snotty cruise. He was supported from above (the XO) and below (his deputies), regardless of his own (un)readiness to command.



After all, there's only so many desk posts that aren't actually in command you can fill with bad officers, and some bad apples that you actually cannot touch, like all the politicals in the Manticore Ascendant books.


Think I'm starting to ramble, so in a nutshell, forts are too subordinate to waste on just best and brightest, but in the right place to babysit officers you can't necessarily trust fully with a ship, let alone entire squadrons. Only so much trouble even Elvis Santino can cause commanding a fortress, before someone slapped him down for failing to be ready.

Somtaaw wrote:Think I'm starting to ramble, so in a nutshell, forts are too subordinate to waste on just best and brightest, but in the right place to babysit officers you can't necessarily trust fully with a ship, let alone entire squadrons. Only so much trouble even Elvis Santino can cause commanding a fortress, before someone slapped him down for failing to be ready.

Failure to be ready probably is the cardinal sin for a fortress commander. They're units that need to be ready, at any time, with no notice - at least during their active shifts. For years on end, day in and day out, ready at seconds' notice. That's demanding, but it's a different demand than hyper-capable warships have, where Honor reminds herself that there's always at least a little time to think and it's important to take it and use it.

The sort of personality and command style that would shine in one arena may do poorly at best in the other, in either direction. Captain No-Imagination, Cannot-Be-Bored, Hairtrigger-Accurate-Judgment is going to do very badly placed where a Harrington, Oversteegen, or Terekhov will shine and credit the Star Empire. Put one of them in command of a fortress and they are likely to leave Her Majesty's Navy in mental health self defense in months, if they don't make a very bad mistake first.

Somtaaw wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't get the feeling that Astro Command is a Siberia posting either. It demands the best of the best. An Elvis Santino would not have his people well oiled and drilled. What's the use of having forts if the crew is inadequate, slow to respond, can't think on their own and cannot function in unprecedented circumstances? Like my sweetheart Stephania the Grimm reaper.

Instead of being ordered to that post, I would think that the brightest and best-fitting officers are approached and asked to volunteer. Much like Truman and Abigail. It's too important a posting.

I agree that Fort Command is no Siberia, but it's not something you waste your best and brightest on either. Prior to Silesia being carved up between the SEM/Andermani, Manticore sent promising (so best and brightest) captains there to blood them in anti-piracy.


While you cannot send all your good officers on that sort of plum, you also have a much larger supply of "generally competent, but should not be allowed independent command" officers.

Forts, at least in Manticore itself, fall under the command of the Fleet Admiral commanding Home Fleet. I could imagine the same thing applies to Grendlesbane ; the Peeps attacked, it was Admiral Higgins who called the shots and NOT the base commander. Grayson, pre- and post-Alliance, forts has always been commanded by their Home Fleet CO, and even the Havenites did it such as Barnett (just after Theisman had left for Haven).

Lots of good evidence that fortress' get put under command of someone else, which means that even a Santino or Young, is going to be AT BEST a squadron commander, and more likely a divisional CO. They will always have someone dictating strategy to them, and coming down like a hammer to anvil over readiness reports showing forts not ready to fight. Take for example, Santino during Honor's snotty cruise. He was supported from above (the XO) and below (his deputies), regardless of his own (un)readiness to command.



After all, there's only so many desk posts that aren't actually in command you can fill with bad officers, and some bad apples that you actually cannot touch, like all the politicals in the Manticore Ascendant books.


Think I'm starting to ramble, so in a nutshell, forts are too subordinate to waste on just best and brightest, but in the right place to babysit officers you can't necessarily trust fully with a ship, let alone entire squadrons. Only so much trouble even Elvis Santino can cause commanding a fortress, before someone slapped him down for failing to be ready.

I understand where you're coming from. However, I think you're being too dismissive. The Navy is an all encompassing employer of talents. When I say that the position calls for the best of the best, I stand by it. The mistake you're making is in forgetting the different areas of command. Everyone won't aspire to a hyper command. Everyone doesn't want it. Some people really rather be the Center and not the Quarterback. Doesn't mean the Center isn't the best of the best. Everyone doesn't wish to be groomed for hyper command. Some want to be engineers.

I would imagine that the Crusher is also designed to flesh out specialized talent. Be that as it may, forts require the best-fit officers of the available competent gene pool not out chasing the wedge of a ship. Had Stephania Grimm's predecessor or someone else had been in charge at the time, the battle could have been over before it started. That is much too important of a post to put the graduates that sat at the back of the class. Again, there are many more brilliant officers in which to choose, left over from those not seeking to sit in the big chair.

Young wouldn't be a good fit, because fort personnel are probably a very close knit family. Peas in a pod. Young would be counter productive to that.