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Harchong and agricultural machinery

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Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by imperatorzor   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:56 am

imperatorzor
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This is a thought that has to do with Harchong...

1: Harchong's agriculture is primitive even by Safeholdian standards, agricultural equipment like disc plows that's in The Writ is rare compared to simpler devices and such the productivity per hectare of a Harchongese farm is less than that of it's Siddarmarkian or Chisholmian counterpart.
2: Harchong has conscripted 1,500,000 peasants for The Mighty Host of God and the Archangels (and might yet conscript more of them), that's a lot of workers taken away from the farms.
3: The Temple is getting more strapped for cash with the Jihad but it's industrial output has risen with new manufactories using more modern methods coming up.

To me it makes sense for the Temple to order that new agricultural equipment be made and distributed among the estates in Harchong to better support the Jihad. Tell them that the gear that they are making is in the Book of Sondheim and is perfectly acceptable.

It's probably adding a supersoaker to put out the burning house that the Jihad's become at this point, but they might as well give it a shot.

Zor
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:32 am

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imperatorzor wrote:To me it makes sense for the Temple to order that new agricultural equipment be made and distributed among the estates in Harchong to better support the Jihad.


It makes sense to you, and it makes sense to me. It probably would make sense to Caleb, Sharleyan, and the rest of the inner circle. It might even make sense to the CoGA treasurer, Duchairn.

The problem is that while it makes sense to any rational person, it won't make sense to Jaspahr Clyntahnn. He's already vetoed several things that any rational person would consider absolutely necessary to survival. I can't see him approving any diversion of resources to a plan that wouldn't produce noticeable results for at least one growing season and probably two, no matter how important feeding an army so it can fight might be.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:25 am

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Yep, more ploughs = less guns so Jaspahr ain't going to buy it. He still believes in a short victorious war and won't look at anything that suggests otherwise. Mind you he may be right, to the extent that if the CoGA can't win quickly they won't win at all. The idea that boat has already sailed is even less thinkable.
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by n7axw   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:20 am

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He might buy into the notion that more agricultural equipment means more cannon fodder... Gotta throw those boys at the heretics, after all. I agree with the other comments about his rationality. But this one is simple and comparatively innocous so he migt be convinced , especially if you can make him think it's his idea...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:47 pm

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Ah, quibbling.
It takes time to grow cannon fodder to the point it can be used. It also takes time and material to manufacture agricultural equipment even if it is just more of what is historicaly used. Makeing new, better, more efficent equipment and training the farmers to use it presumes you still have the farmers and the land. Loseing all those farm serfs to the Army of God will cut your production and you still have to get the food (processed or not) to both the army and whatever manufacturing you have/need along with feeding the farmers.

Did Clyton not think though the scorched earth policy of burning out the heretics AND destroying the farms? Seems not. It had the effect of taking all the non-heretics out of the farming and transportation business at the same time in those areas and putting the burden of feeding (and housing etc) those people SOMEPLACE else.

I know, lets withdraw all the faithful closer to the Temple and compell them to work for nothing with starvation level rations while we force the strongest of them to march out to attempt to protect the heart of the church while we anticipate next winter with how many feet average and no fuel comming in and totally inadequte housing. Sounds like a good plan to me. The church seems to be waiting on Devine Intervention. Too bad the while system depends on dead people who were pretending to be gods and their minions- oh, and automated kenetic bombardment systems with 800 year old software.
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:03 pm

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You don't suppose it's running on Windows 150 do you?
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:05 pm

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imperatorzor wrote:To me it makes sense for the Temple to order that new agricultural equipment be made and distributed among the estates in Harchong to better support the Jihad. Tell them that the gear that they are making is in the Book of Sondheim and is perfectly acceptable.

It's probably adding a supersoaker to put out the burning house that the Jihad's become at this point, but they might as well give it a shot.

Zor

On top of the irrational but compelling reasons others have noted, there's the fact that it will guarantee lots and lots of serfs and slaves after the war without employment. That's not compatible with Harchong's landowners (and people-owners) remaining safe, secure, and happy. I would be doing cartwheels of joy at that prospect, but the Powers That Be won't.
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by n7axw   » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:50 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
imperatorzor wrote:To me it makes sense for the Temple to order that new agricultural equipment be made and distributed among the estates in Harchong to better support the Jihad. Tell them that the gear that they are making is in the Book of Sondheim and is perfectly acceptable.

It's probably adding a supersoaker to put out the burning house that the Jihad's become at this point, but they might as well give it a shot.

Zor

On top of the irrational but compelling reasons others have noted, there's the fact that it will guarantee lots and lots of serfs and slaves after the war without employment. That's not compatible with Harchong's landowners (and people-owners) remaining safe, secure, and happy. I would be doing cartwheels of joy at that prospect, but the Powers That Be won't.


If those big farms have been stripped of serfs for the Mighty Host, they might be forced to the farm equipment, like it or not. After all, if they can't feed the army or the populace, the trouble they fear will be upon them well before any future they might be worried about.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by TheOneLogician   » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:18 pm

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It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that South Harchong will be all up for it, while North Harchong will resist it. The result could very well be a spilt between the two nations, as the more pragmatic South Harchong modernizes, calls off the Jihad, and gets richer. North Harchong continues to resist innovation, throws bodies into the meat grinder, and starves to death slowly.
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Re: Harchong and agricultural machinery
Post by Laenole   » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:37 am

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According to a discussion between Merlin and Rock Pont in Chapter 10, May, Year of God 896 MTaT, Harchong’s Mighty Host of God strength of 1.5 million troops represents less than 1% of Harchong’s total pop of 200 million. As Merlin discusses pre Middle Age regimes could normally field as military about 1% of their pop. Under duress and as technology progressed, regimes can field 3% of their pop before industrialization. Merlin speculates with the amount of industrialization in Church supporting lands, it could field around 4% of a total pop of 800 million. He thinks Charis-Siddarmark could probably support 6% of their 200 million as military.

From discussions of Harchong’s economy and political practices, it seems to me that it will be lucky to be able to field a total of 3% of its population. Any severe reverse to its current army will likely be difficult or impossible to recover from. There are already signs that Desnair is on the ropes for manpower. Dohlar may be getting close.

In general Charis will have to kill, incapacitate, or capture at least 3 Church supporters for every one of its losses. A straight battle of attrition at these ratios will leave an exhausted Safehold that will probably dissolve into anarchy leaving no true winner, not even old Charis.

"All that glitters is not gold"
Laenole
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