Temporal and secular

I've noticed a recurring thing in many of Mr. Weber's books in the Honorverse as well as the Safehold series, where he refers to religious leaders as "temporal" and juxtaposes this with "secular" political leaders.

I've been scratching my head over this and thinking that I must be missing something. Does "temporal" not refer to more or less the same thing as "secular," i.e. not clerical or divine? It's a small thing, to be sure, but given how consistently it's repeated I'd love it if anyone had an explanation to scratch this itch.

Temporal is a synonym to secular yes. Along with worldly, profane, mundane etc...

Spiritual, sacred, ecclesiastical or religious, divine etc., would be the "opposite side".


Temporal derives from being part of time, as opposed to eternal.

Secular also derives from a reference to time, as in being part of an age in time, or referring to a segment of time or occuring once in an era.


Can´t say i´ve noticed this myself, but if you´re correct then i would guess someone screwed up.

Tenshinai wrote:Temporal is a synonym to secular yes. Along with worldly, profane, mundane etc...

Spiritual, sacred, ecclesiastical or religious, divine etc., would be the "opposite side".


Temporal derives from being part of time, as opposed to eternal.

Secular also derives from a reference to time, as in being part of an age in time, or referring to a segment of time or occuring once in an era.


Can´t say i´ve noticed this myself, but if you´re correct then i would guess someone screwed up.

Not necessarily. It would help if an actual snippet of such is given. Operating out of context isn't so straightforward.

My 'edumicated' guess would be that RFC intended that 'temporal' would assume its 'adjective' meaning of time. Implying that a temporal and secular leader would hold his post briefly because of his :secular (religious inadequacies.)

cthia wrote:Not necessarily. It would help if an actual snippet of such is given. Operating out of context isn't so straightforward.

Flag In Exile, last scene in Chapter 28, where Edward Martin is being questioned by Protector Benjamin and Second Elder Jeremiah Sullivan about his role in the shooting down of Honor's shuttle and the death of Rev. Hanks:

"Would you make confession of your sins, Edward Martin, to the lords temporal and secular of Grayson, and seek God's mercy upon yourself?"

And a few lines later...

"Do you voluntarily make confession to the secular powers of Grayson, releasing me from the seal of your contrition?" Sullivan asked.

If you look in some dictionaries, you will find 'temporal' defined as "Of, belonging to, or situated in the temples". A _good_ dictionary will point out that this usage is restricted to anatomy: that thin patch of bone that tends to crack when somebody whacks you upside the head is the temple, and the stuff located just inboard of it is temporal.

What we're seeing here is two distinct Latin words that - as is often the case - have converged to a single orthography in English [due to English pretty much dumping the idea of declension and most inflections]. Working out what the relationship between those Latin words is needs more delving into ancient etymology than I have time or references for.

The expression Himself was reaching for, used in the description of Parliament or the Estates of the Realm for example, is 'Lords Spiritual and Temporal'. However, the one he's using appears to be hard-wired now, so we're going to have to live with it.

dscott8 wrote:

cthia wrote:Not necessarily. It would help if an actual snippet of such is given. Operating out of context isn't so straightforward.

Flag In Exile, last scene in Chapter 28, where Edward Martin is being questioned by Protector Benjamin and Second Elder Jeremiah Sullivan about his role in the shooting down of Honor's shuttle and the death of Rev. Hanks:

"Would you make confession of your sins, Edward Martin, to the lords temporal and secular of Grayson, and seek God's mercy upon yourself?"

And a few lines later...

"Do you voluntarily make confession to the secular powers of Grayson, releasing me from the seal of your contrition?" Sullivan asked.

Coincidentally, the thing that prompted this post from me was in fact Flag in Exile. Another example at the start of Chapter 29:

Reverend Hanks, as the temporal head of Grayson, should have accompanied the Protector...

dscott8 wrote:
Flag In Exile, last scene in Chapter 28, where Edward Martin is being questioned by Protector Benjamin and Second Elder Jeremiah Sullivan about his role in the shooting down of Honor's shuttle and the death of Rev. Hanks:

"Would you make confession of your sins, Edward Martin, to the lords temporal and secular of Grayson, and seek God's mercy upon yourself?"

And a few lines later...

"Do you voluntarily make confession to the secular powers of Grayson, releasing me from the seal of your contrition?" Sullivan asked.

"lords temporal and secular" in this case i see these words not being put in opposition at all but rather used as a "full descriptive".


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Coincidentally, the thing that prompted this post from me was in fact Flag in Exile. Another example at the start of Chapter 29:

Reverend Hanks, as the temporal head of Grayson, should have accompanied the Protector...

Now THAT one is just weird. Although there is a possible way of explaining it. It just doesn´t make good sense:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_ ... 28papal%29
Because the temporal head of Grayson is the Protector... While Hanks was the head of the church, and held the temporal power of the church.

So, yes it looks weird.