Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests

Hot Air Balloons

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Hot Air Balloons
Post by TheOneLogician   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:49 am

TheOneLogician
Ensign

Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:10 am

Just a lot. How hard would be be right now for either Charis or Siddermark to produce hot air balloons for either reconnaissance or bombing of high clusters of Church manufacturing?
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:28 am

Tenshinai
Admiral

Posts: 2893
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Sweden

TheOneLogician wrote:Just a lot. How hard would be be right now for either Charis or Siddermark to produce hot air balloons for either reconnaissance or bombing of high clusters of Church manufacturing?


First balloons on Earth were made with 18th century tech.
They have more like 19th century tech.

So probably doable. Don´t expect big bombing raids though, because airships are a lot harder than balloons.
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by captinjoehenry   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:30 am

captinjoehenry
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:36 pm

Observation would be really really easy just make a hot air balloon. Bombing not so much as you would need to guide the balloon over the target and that requires power of some sort and steam engines are heavy. So until they get some advance light weight steam engines or something else they would not be able to position the balloon over any target. Now balloon bombs might work but that relies on air currents and those are not really understood at all or really known about at this point for any long range bombing and those would really not be accurate at all.

Of course there is the issue of flying and if the writ says anything about that but I do not know enough to talk about that.
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:21 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

captinjoehenry wrote:...that requires power of some sort and steam engines are heavy. ....



Steam engines are NOT necessarily heavy. Conventional Steam Boilers and the water to make steam are heavy, but they don't have to be as big as most people think of when they think of steam engines.

A hot air balloon's heat source could double as the heat source to power a flash boiler for small -- Stanley Steamer sized -- engine of around 100 pounds or less.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by captinjoehenry   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:49 am

captinjoehenry
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:36 pm

Weird Harold wrote:
captinjoehenry wrote:...that requires power of some sort and steam engines are heavy. ....



Steam engines are NOT necessarily heavy. Conventional Steam Boilers and the water to make steam are heavy, but they don't have to be as big as most people think of when they think of steam engines.

A hot air balloon's heat source could double as the heat source to power a flash boiler for small -- Stanley Steamer sized -- engine of around 100 pounds or less.


Yes as I said later in my post Charis CURRENT steam engines are not up to the task. More advance ones designed for light weight will be able to do it quite well but so far Charis has focused quite reasonably on marine and industrial steam engines and is beginning to work on train steam engines but they have yet to work on light weight ones as far as I know
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:02 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

captinjoehenry wrote:...so far Charis has focused quite reasonably on marine and industrial steam engines and is beginning to work on train steam engines but they have yet to work on light weight ones as far as I know


They have made small scale models of locomotives, so they have the technology to make small steam engines (with small boilers.) The only thing the lack is flash boiler technology.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by McGuiness   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:48 pm

McGuiness
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1203
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:35 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains, USA

Weird Harold wrote:They have made small scale models of locomotives, so they have the technology to make small steam engines (with small boilers.) The only thing the lack is flash boiler technology.
Small-er than the full-sized engines that followed, but don't forget, Howsmyn's favorite model size is an inch per inch! :lol:

Of course they'll "invent" flash boiler technology as soon as they have a need for it... Thanks OWL! ;)

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:56 pm

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

McGuiness wrote:Small-er than the full-sized engines that followed, but don't forget, Howsmyn's favorite model size is an inch per inch! :lol:


From the description of employees riding the "toy trains" I picture the prototypes as 1/12th scale or "Large Scale Railroad" scale.

Like this:

Image

A live-steam engine in that scale would easily turn a prop for a hot-air zeppelin; at least long enough for final adjustments over a target.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by TheOneLogician   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:50 pm

TheOneLogician
Ensign

Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:10 am

The hardest part conceptually would be the Proscriptions. Even a Reformer would find it a bit strange. Though I can imagine they may be able to say, "Well, Hydrogen/Helium is INNNNN the air so......"
Top
Re: Hot Air Balloons
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:24 pm

Tenshinai
Admiral

Posts: 2893
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Sweden

So until they get some advance light weight steam engines or something else they would not be able to position the balloon over any target.


A balloon really sucks in regards to moving by itself. Take a look at reality, you will not find powered balloons. Blimps and zeppelins yes, because they can be steered and controlled.
A balloon has nothing to keep it from "spinning". You need a shape that you can control.

Now balloon bombs might work but that relies on air currents and those are not really understood at all or really known about at this point for any long range bombing and those would really not be accurate at all.


Complete waste of effort.

#####

Steam engines are NOT necessarily heavy. Conventional Steam Boilers and the water to make steam are heavy, but they don't have to be as big as most people think of when they think of steam engines.


Compared to ICE, yes they are very heavy.

A hot air balloon's heat source could double as the heat source to power a flash boiler for small -- Stanley Steamer sized -- engine of around 100 pounds or less.


No, the balloon´s heat source can not double as a heatsource for a flash boiler. 2 very different ways to apply heat. You might be able to use part of the heat from one source for the other, but it´s going to be ineffective to the point that it may be more weight than it´s worth.

You can work a steam engine heatsource so that it provides heating for the air needed, but not realistically the other way around.
And it´s probably not going to be a good solution either way.

100 lb or less? :lol:
You do realise that shrinking a Stanley steamer also makes it less efficient?

The 20HP Stanley needed over 70l of water in the boiler, and had a fueltank of almost 130l.
A standard Stanley boiler had over 600 firetubes, and as these were part of structural integrity(and needed for the rapid steam production, that was one of the reasons they could be run at very high pressure, it also means to get the performance, you can´t just drop parts of it.
And while the "engine" parts by itself are lightweight, the boiler isn´t.

And if you try to scale it down as much as you want, the performance to weight ratio goes totally craptacular.
There´s good reason the Stanley engine was never tried for airplanes.
Top

Return to Safehold