Fortress Command

Isn't the MWJ in that lovely gray area of being near Manticore but not strictly in Manticoran space?

If so, Manticore needed to provide a solid, near-permanent armed presence to depress the ambition of everyone to stop by and lay a claim, not just the Peeps. Using mobile units to provide that presence would risk it not being there when it was needed, or indeed having it deceived into uncovering the Junction at the right/wrong time.

kzt wrote:

Sigs wrote:They already had 300 Ships of the wall build, building another 150 or 200 instead of the forts would not be that much of a problem.

The forts were built well before the war, probably during the 1880s as they were primarily energy weapon based. If they were SDs the would have been pretty much obsolete at the star of the war.

The simple basic reason that they went with Forts over mobile units is politics plain and simple. All the reasons about how those ships are now obsolete didn't apply in the late 1800's. This was explained in OBS about how combat became ritualized and it also explains how the SLN remained top dog. The SLN had 11,000 SD's (around 2000 active and around 9000 in reserve) and there had been no big changes in combat in hundreds of years so no one in their right mind was going to take those odds on.

So lets recap the political situation prior to the war, to get the majority in the House of Lords and be able to form a government the Duke of Cromarty had to make a deal with the Conservative Association. Part of that deal was to make Janacek First Lord of the Admiralty and cater to the Conservative Associations position of nothing hinting towards expansion or as they put it "antagonize their neighbors". Also at the same time the Liberals and Progressives would not pay for "big ticket" military items which and SD is. This was explained in On Basilisk Station Chapter 2.

She didn't study politics, she didn't understand politics, and she didn't like politics, but even she grasped the Cromarty government's current dilemma. Confronted by the Liberals' and Progressives' inflexible opposition to big-ticket military budgets, and signs the so-called "New Men" were inclining towards temporary alliance with them, Duke Allen had been forced to draw the Conservative Association into his camp as a counterweight. It was unlikely the Conservatives would stay put—their xenophobic isolationism and protectionism were too fundamentally at odds with the Centrist and Crown Loyalist perception that open war with the People's Republic of Haven was inevitable—but for now they were needed, and they'd charged high for their allegiance. They'd wanted the military ministry, and Duke Allen had been forced to buy them off by naming Sir Edward Janacek First Lord of the Admiralty, the civilian head of Honor's own service under the Minister of War.
Janacek had been an admiral in his time, and one with a reputation for toughness and determination, but a more reactionary old xenophobe would be hard to find. He was one of the group who had opposed the annexation of the Basilisk terminus of the Manticore Junction on the grounds that it would "antagonize our neighbors" (translated: it would be the first step on the road to foreign adventurism), and that was bad enough. Unpolitical Honor might be, but she knew which party she supported. The Centrists realized that the Republic of Haven's expansionism must inevitably bring it into conflict with the Kingdom, and they were preparing to do something about it. The Conservatives wanted to bury their heads in the sand until it all went away, though they were at least willing to support a powerful fleet to safeguard their precious isolation.

Forts that can't hyper out, following that logic, are not "antagonizing to their neighbors", however 200 SD's that can attack, capture and annex another planet is alarming so the Conservatives would veto it and Cromarty would lose his coalition and the government would collapse just as he was fearing the war was about to start.

Janacek did the same thing when High Ridge took over and he once again was First Lord. He canceled all the new SD's being built at Grendlesbane and only let the ones being built at the Manitcoran yards continue because it was a jobs project to their coalition partners and it was visible to the home planet.

The ships laid down at Manticore were the earliest ones committed to, and it was their completion which provided the core of Eighth Fleet for White Haven's decisive operations. The ships at Grendelsbane had been laid down considerably later, as the Cromarty Government's new taxation programs provided the funds for the second, major wave of the RMN's expansion in the new types. As a result, more of the total Grendelsbane construction was at an unfinished stage when the cease-fire was so unexpectedly negotiated and the Janacek Admiralty effectively suspended construction on the majority of the new types. Because the ships being built in the home system were more visible to the public, and because the wages of the labor force committed to their construction would go straight back into the home system's economy, the High Ridge Government made the completion of the remaining ships at Manticore its priority building commitment. Those at Grendelsbane were suspended much earlier than those in the home yards. The fact that these were the older, Harrington/Medusa-class units (having been the first laid down) rather than the new Invictus-class units (laid down in the second wave) is also the reason that the ships under construction (and lost) at Grendelsbane were individually more powerful and capable than the ones actually in commission.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/104/1

It was so bad that Buships had to lie to get the Sag-C built, they told their political masters (including Janacek) that it was nothing more than an upgrade to the Sag-B when in fact it was a whole new design.

Also at the start of the war the RMN had only 186 SD's not 300, they gained the others over the course of the war and at the time of the Battle of Manticore had only 200 SD's in service with another 100 in reserve (switching out to Podlayers):
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/105/1
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/106/1

kzt wrote:

Sigs wrote:They already had 300 Ships of the wall build, building another 150 or 200 instead of the forts would not be that much of a problem.

The forts were built well before the war, probably during the 1880s as they were primarily energy weapon based. If they were SDs the would have been pretty much obsolete at the star of the war.

Plus of course the fact that Roger and Elizabeth were able to get money for SDs later doesn't mean that the opposition would have been willing to fund SDs in preference to forts earlier. The buildup of defensive forts appears to have predated the buildup of SDs by a decade or more.
At the time the choices may well have been forts or nothing.

Sigs wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I'm not reading through all of this too carefully, but it looks like a key point has been missed (or rather, made in a ink Duckk posted but left buried in there): The manpower at least and probably the price does not translate nicely ton for ton.

Even if you assume all of them are no more than 16,000,000 tons which they specifically said applied only to the smallest of them and then assumed that 1 fort at 16,000,000 tons equal 1.5 SD’s that still doubles your SD’s. I don’t see why the forts should be that far off in crew requirements since the 124 forts once released millions of members for service with mobile fleet units once Trevor’s Star was captured.

Judging from the manning requirements - a new model fort ran the same crew requirements as a new model battlecruiser - you don't get 1 fort for 1.5 SD's. You get maybe 1 fort for .4 SD's. (And it's got the firepower of 2 or more SD's.) The crew bonanza when the old model forts were decommissioned went into new model warships. It was never a choice between building the old model fortresses versus new model warships - that choice would have been sheer madness.

JeffEngel wrote:You can spend a relatively small amount of dollars, build time, ongoing expense, and manpower with good fortresses for things you will not ever reasonably leave uncovered, which thereby frees up the funds, time, and people to build and support the larger mobile fleet. Manticore could have traded in all those fortresses for a fairly small number of SD's - which would then, as a strategic imperative, have had to remain covering the Junction inadequately anyway.

Granted those SD’s would have to remain in the Home System but they would defend the Planets, the yards and the junction while the forts represent tremendous amount of firepower that is fixed in one location and which cannot in a timely manner reinforce or even threaten an enemy that attacks the Capital planet. Do you think there would be more danger of a direct attack on Manticore if Haven knows there are 80 SD’s and DN’s Guarding the system plus 124 forts at the junction which wont be able to interfere or if there are 80 SD’s and DN’s in Home Fleet plus another 150 or 200 SD’s at the junction that can reinforce Home Fleet in a pinch. Leaving that firepower fixed to protect a secondary objective seems like a waste of resources to me.

SD's at the Junction aren't able to get to Manticore A or B in time to stop attackers short of any of the planets or belt installations. For that matter, SD's in Manticore A or B can't reach the other star system quickly enough for real satisfaction. Microjumps from A, B, or the Junction to one another can help, but often not enough. So you've got three regions there and only moderate ability for mobile forces to cover more than one effectively. The Junction hasn't got any hyperlimit to protect it to speak of, so maneuverability there is a non-issue, so fortresses there can provide it all the protection it can use.

It's not that secondary - it's the reason anyone attacks the Manticore System, and it's now the vital heart connecting the lobes of the Empire together - and the fortresses represent a huge economy in personnel that you're still not taking to heart.

jchilds wrote:Isn't the MWJ in that lovely gray area of being near Manticore but not strictly in Manticoran space?

If so, Manticore needed to provide a solid, near-permanent armed presence to depress the ambition of everyone to stop by and lay a claim, not just the Peeps. Using mobile units to provide that presence would risk it not being there when it was needed, or indeed having it deceived into uncovering the Junction at the right/wrong time.

Yes.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/323/1

To summarise, there's a sphere extending 12 light-minutes beyond a star's hyper limit within which the system government has complete sovereignty. Beyond that, your sovereignty extends only so far as you can enforce it.

If the Jucntion forts had been replaced with SDs they almost certainly all wouldn't have been there by the time Haven attacked Manticore. They were really short on ships after Thunderbolt and it would have been impossible to resist the temptation to peel off a squadron here and a squadron there. Not to mention High Ridge would have scrapped or mothballed the lot of them. They're just more obsolete ships.

They key thing about forts is they eliminate a number of potential mistakes. They can't be suckered into a feint or frittered away in penny packet pickets. Given the supremacy of the Junction in Manticoran strategy, they're also less vulnerable peace-time downsizing. It's easy to say Manticore doesn't need a large standing fleet of SDs but a lot harder to argue they don't need so many forts around the Junction. Only having enough SDs for system defence is a challenge; not having enough forts for Junction defence is a defeat.

Someone asked why Beowulf would pay to support Junction
Forts after Manticore's planets fell to Haven.

All Termini of a Junction are effectively next to each
other. Therefore a Junction might be ruled from *any*
Terminus.
Especially the one with the strongest nearby Polity!

Beowulf might pay for those forts,
as a part of taking control of that Junction!

For that matter, once the Manticore-Beowulf Route was
found, Beowulf (then *very* much stronger) might have
turned Manticore into a vassal state at any time before
Manticore grew its navy larger than Beowulf's.


HTM

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Someone asked why Beowulf would pay to support Junction
Forts after Manticore's planets fell to Haven.

All Termini of a Junction are effectively next to each
other. Therefore a Junction might be ruled from *any*
Terminus.
Especially the one with the strongest nearby Polity!

Beowulf might pay for those forts,
as a part of taking control of that Junction!

For that matter, once the Manticore-Beowulf Route was
found, Beowulf (then *very* much stronger) might have
turned Manticore into a vassal state at any time before
Manticore grew its navy larger than Beowulf's.


HTM

This also give more power to Janacheck's arguments in his rebuttal letters to Lt Cmdr Winton - as mentioned, The 25 capitol ships of the RMN (as antiquated as they were) were a powerful force in the galaxy and no none was directly threatening them ... then. In addition, however, there was a powerful force of Junction forts and inner system forts that greatly outnumbered (and was probably more modern than) the mobile RMN battle fleet, and those forts would actually be the main line of defense of the Star Kingdom, with the mobile force backing them.

This brings up something I've mentioned several times in the past, namely RFC has never mentioned the scarcity of Forts in the SL. We know at only a dozen or so SDFs have more than a squadron of the wall - but how many of these "single star polities" have powerful forces of forts? We know most only have LACs for mobile forces, but does that mean that their habitable areas are covered by dozens of 20 Mton forts?

Because let's face it - these are Self Defense Forces for essentially single system polities, with (in the form of the SLN) an umbrella body which provides piracy suppression and strategic retaliation forces. There is no need for hyper ships if you have no need to deploy them outside your hyper limit - which most SL members wouldn't due to the fine work of the FF and the existence of the BF.

So, what would a single system SDF need for a good defense? LACs for patrolling the system... and Forts to protect the strategic nodes.

And as I said - RFC have never mentioned the scarcity (or quantity) of Forts in the SL.

Makes you wonder what is in Beowulf orbit, doesn't it?

The Junction Forts don't just defend against attack through the various wormholes, they also defend the Junction area from assalt through hyperspace.

Think of this as a multi-stage/level problem. The first and most ovious is when Haven took 1st the San Matrin system and then took the San Martin end of the San Martin-Manticore Junction Wormhole. That gave Haven the access to the Junction through the wormhole but they were unwilling to make that attack alone because, with the Juntion fortified, they were going to get shot to pieces (little tiny pieces) if they made the transists through into the face of the forts and whatever warships were stationed there.

That is why Manticore had the forts in the 1st place- to keep someone from taking the junction and open that transit path from any particular terminus to the Junction. Remember that there is an upper mass limit and a delay in next attempted (and if you cut the time between transists you get some seriously nasty results to the ship(s) you try to put through) transit. This gives you the ability to calculate the total mass of warships that could come though and build your defensive systems to scale. Then ther is the whole need (which Manticore recognized and was doing) of rotating the fortresses through on-duty cycles such that they had AT LEAST enough active and on-duty (fully manned, and in hightened alert with all systems live and ready) all the time. There were enough off-duty in various stages of rotations, maintenance and training to keep the inbound lanes of the junction fully covered at all time.
That brings up a differerent point and next level. Each terminus had both an inbound AND an outbound lane at the junction. One pair for EACH terminus. It was not like you rotated ships comming through from the several termini ship 1 from T A, ship 2 from T B , ship 3 from T C etc. You have a need to cover the lanes from EACH terminus separately. You really don't know if the other end of any one of them is going to get rushed with an assault force. Heven held the San Martin wormhole at the other end. They attemped and were unable to take the Basilisk terminus due to Honor's action but that would have ultimatly put (if they had been successful) Haven with the abiliity to attack from two seperate points withing the transit limitations.

Sure, the forts covering each inbound lane should be able to cover the outbound lane but that should be just armed oversight on a single line of ships (usualy freighters) already cleard and outbound.

What the forts also have to cover- with hyper capable warships backing them up or being used to cover the mobility needs on that defense- were the possibilty of attack on the Junction from the outside of the hyper-limit around the Junction. That is why the point about needing to take a junction from both ends. If have could have taken sufficent force through hyper to strike at both the Junction defense and at least start on the Home Fleet and in-systems defense, at some point they should be able to cut away enough of the junction defence to alow wormhole transit to the Junction to then add to the attack of the system.

This is the piece missing from the planning by the SLN planners and waived aside when the SLN Admiral was going to "reenforce" Filerta by taking 100 wallers through the Sigma Draconis Terminus. At the very best, she was given to believe that the actual Junction defense were as heaviley damaged as the rest of the Manticoure infrastructure or at worst most of the defense (forts and actual ships) would have been moved back in-system to replace some of the destroyed Home Fleet. !) Oyster Bay didn't even take a single shot at the Junction and 2) All the forts were still there, primed, ready and loaded. Lets not mention that they had also been forwarded about the 100SDs, when they were planned to come through and were perfectly well aware that the "Newsies" DB was taking the signal to breach the wormhole. The BSDF commander and the RMN commander of the fleet to deny the transit were perfectly correct that there would be nothing (but comsic dust-bunnies) of ANY SLN warships that tried to go through the Sigma Draconis----of course that is of any of them that were left after they attemped to take on both the BSDF Task Force AND the RMN Task Force that had them outgunned, out ranged caught.
About the only only point the RNM commander didn't say was RMN could do the shooting and BSDF could help with the survivor rescue and recovery....or more likely mostly recovery.

Clearly, Filerta and the SLN brass thought the additonal ships could force their way through the wormhole with "acceptable losses" without haveing a clue (do they have NO naval intelligence with two brain cells to rub together such that they could send even one ship under cover though the Junction- trasfere to another and go back through- and report even if only with commercial freighter sensors on the possible status of the Junction defense?

Anyway, you really do need to defend your wormholes at both ends, and in the case of a a junction along each entry/exit axis.

Theemile wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:
And as I said - RFC have never mentioned the scarcity (or quantity) of Forts in the SL.

Makes you wonder what is in Beowulf orbit, doesn't it?

Look at Lacoon II. I am fairly sure we didn't see all of the activities but nobody shown actually had anything like a fort on/in the SL or Verge areas. We were shown a Task Force running through a chain of wormholes with nothing in the way despite it all being in the Verge, including commercial ships that might get though ahead of the force because they were closer to their nominal exit. At the terminus actualy in "SL" space, there was the local Astro Control. It is guessed that there was nothing more powerful that a handfull of LACs (and old design at that) for customs work and fee enforcement. There would have been a chance that the TF could have run into a FF ship (or more) at one or more of the systems/termini just in the normal course of patrolling but without some specific reason to be there, FF isn't going to be hanging around. Even with the opening of Lacoon I, the SLN ship commander screaming at the RMN captain wasn't really prepaired or at least discovered that he was in deep shit and didn't fire on the RMN. No fort, one SLN warship and it was not clear if he was posted there or was on an a specific mission like following up on a pirate report.

Manticore knows the value of the Junction. We haven't seen any other areas with specific terminus fortification. Not clear if Mesa-Visigoth wormhile is fortified on either end though one might think that there is something at the Mesa end just because they have so many people who hate them.

Open question as just how long it would take any other terminus owner/operator to build and emplace forts at their end of their wormhole. That is also going to be a fair drain on the SL members and others who suddenly feel the need to protect a major system asset not to mention retaining effective millitary control of at least their end.

Perhaps all those surrendered or SLN Reserve SDs do have some very limited short term role- "forts" to cover the incomming lane of local wormholes. Protecting them from a strike comming in from hyperspace by more modern ships is a different question.

And yes, what did/does Beowulf have as in-system defences beyond their mobile SFD? We have seen in the books that Beowulf was concerned that Haven might either try to take the Sigma Draconis wormhole from the Beowulf end or, having take Manticore, tried to sweep up Beowulf through intimidation if not attack through the wormhole and taking Beowulf before the SLN could react. The didn't have to actually take the Beowulf system by military storm, if they hold the terminus, they have an open trade route directy into the SL and Beowulf might have to be content (until Haven changes the terms) with the original deal on use of the terminus now under Haven control.

If Beowulf had been building up against a possible Manticore defeat, and having to deal with fending off "suggestions and demands" by a victorious PRH and a localy stationed battle fleet with SD, what they have - beyond the BSDF SD force we have been shown- could be substantial and even if it was set up along the lines of "conventional" as in early through mid Haven-Manticore war, that could be quite a tough nut to crack without the additon of the newere Maticore/Haven tech and weapons. It didn't appear that Beowulf was counting on the SLN to defend them against Haven. Even then they would have guessed that the cost of being "saved" was probably going to be too high.