Machine Guns in Safehold

Maldorian wrote:In world war one the britain´s had not so much Maschine guns like the Germans, but their rifles reloaded automaticly, so they were eaquall in efficenc to the Germans.

Dauntless wrote:the M96 is magazine fed and i belive almost automatic.

There is a world of difference between a bolt-action and an auto-loader (usually described as "semi-automatic) rifle, and neither can really be compared to a machine gun.

FWIW, there were no autoloading rifles issued to anyone in WWI -- at least not as genearl issue. The first general issue autoloading rifle was the American M1 Garand in WWII. There may have been isolated cases of man-portable automatic or semiautomatic weapons deployed in small numbers, but the had no noticeable effect on the war.

The Thompson SMG and BAR were both invented during WWI but not deployed with the America Expeditionary Force for fear that they would be captured and copied. The French and British both deployed light machine guns that were almost "man-portable" (in that they were magazine fed instead of belt-fed) but they were not general issue.

Most soldiers on all sides of WWI used some variant of the Mauser bolt action, which is comparable to the Charisian M96 rifle.

I loved the Lee-Enfield (and yes, it was still in service in the early 1960s). The slick action of the bolt allowed very fast AIMED fire; I could and did put three shots on separate targets within four seconds because it was possible to flick the bolt to and fro with one's fingers while changing the sight picture to the next target. And I wasn't even Infantry, those chaps were far better than me.
Cheers
John

Henry Brown wrote:

Dauntless wrote:it does sound very similar to the Lee-enfield but as i understand it most rifles of that era are much the same regardless of where they were made.

Yes and no. All nations did use bolt-action rifles in the late 19th century/early 20th century period. So in general, they are the same. But they did differ in the specifics. In particular, the British Lee-Enfield was know for having a bolt design which allowed it to be operated quickly and easily. This bolt, combined with a 10 round magazine allowed a fairly high rate of fire. By comparison, the German Mauser rifle had a different bolt design. It was durable and accurate but it could not be worked as quickly, which leads to a lower rate of fire.

John Prigent wrote:I loved the Lee-Enfield (and yes, it was still in service in the early 1960s). The slick action of the bolt allowed very fast AIMED fire; I could and did put three shots on separate targets within four seconds because it was possible to flick the bolt to and fro with one's fingers while changing the sight picture to the next target. And I wasn't even Infantry, those chaps were far better than me.
Cheers
John

If I recall correctly, Canada just gave up their last Lee-Enfields this year - Their Ranger's Arctic Reserve used them due to their cold tolerance.

Weird Harold wrote:

Maldorian wrote:In world war one the britain´s had not so much Maschine guns like the Germans, but their rifles reloaded automaticly, so they were eaquall in efficenc to the Germans.

Dauntless wrote:the M96 is magazine fed and i belive almost automatic.

There is a world of difference between a bolt-action and an auto-loader (usually described as "semi-automatic) rifle, and neither can really be compared to a machine gun.

FWIW, there were no autoloading rifles issued to anyone in WWI -- at least not as genearl issue. The first general issue autoloading rifle was the American M1 Garand in WWII. There may have been isolated cases of man-portable automatic or semiautomatic weapons deployed in small numbers, but the had no noticeable effect on the war.

The Thompson SMG and BAR were both invented during WWI but not deployed with the America Expeditionary Force for fear that they would be captured and copied. The French and British both deployed light machine guns that were almost "man-portable" (in that they were magazine fed instead of belt-fed) but they were not general issue.

Most soldiers on all sides of WWI used some variant of the Mauser bolt action, which is comparable to the Charisian M96 rifle.

"FWIW, there were no autoloading rifles issued to anyone in WWI -- at least not as genearl issue." Yes AND no. The French had the RSC 1917 in limited issue, approx 86,000 by 1918. The problem was the troops didn't like it very much as it was heavy and the gas operation was not fully mature when it was issued to them.

doug941 wrote:"FWIW, there were no autoloading rifles issued to anyone in WWI -- at least not as genearl issue." Yes AND no. The French had the RSC 1917 in limited issue, approx 86,000 by 1918. The problem was the troops didn't like it very much as it was heavy and the gas operation was not fully mature when it was issued to them.

I was pretty sure someone would come up with some obscure limited issue rifle and pick at the timing. But "Limited Issue" =/= "General Issue."

More to the point, it still doesn't make a bolt action "nearly automatic."

Weird Harold wrote:

Maldorian wrote:In world war one the britain´s had not so much Maschine guns like the Germans, but their rifles reloaded automaticly, so they were eaquall in efficenc to the Germans.

Dauntless wrote:the M96 is magazine fed and i belive almost automatic.

There is a world of difference between a bolt-action and an auto-loader (usually described as "semi-automatic) rifle, and neither can really be compared to a machine gun.

FWIW, there were no autoloading rifles issued to anyone in WWI -- at least not as genearl issue. The first general issue autoloading rifle was the American M1 Garand in WWII. There may have been isolated cases of man-portable automatic or semiautomatic weapons deployed in small numbers, but the had no noticeable effect on the war.

The Thompson SMG and BAR were both invented during WWI but not deployed with the America Expeditionary Force for fear that they would be captured and copied. The French and British both deployed light machine guns that were almost "man-portable" (in that they were magazine fed instead of belt-fed) but they were not general issue.

Most soldiers on all sides of WWI used some variant of the Mauser bolt action, which is comparable to the Charisian M96 rifle.

Not quite on the Thompson SMG and BAR.

The BAR or Browning Automatic Rifle or M1918 entered service in 1918.

The Thompson SMG or M1921 or M1928 didn't really enter service with the US Military until 1938 because of it expense $200 each.

saber964 wrote:Not quite on the Thompson SMG and BAR.

The BAR or Browning Automatic Rifle or M1918 entered service in 1918.

The Thompson SMG or M1921 or M1928 didn't really enter service with the US Military until 1938 because of it expense $200 each.

They were both INVENTED during WWI and the debates about accepting them into service included the worries about being lost in combat. The debate on the Thompson included the debate on the utility of sub-machine guns in general as well as the cost problem.

Still, the minor quibble of when the debates were over and they were officially accepted ignores the point that Bolt action rifles aren't "nearly automatic."

Weird Harold wrote:

doug941 wrote:"FWIW, there were no autoloading rifles issued to anyone in WWI -- at least not as genearl issue." Yes AND no. The French had the RSC 1917 in limited issue, approx 86,000 by 1918. The problem was the troops didn't like it very much as it was heavy and the gas operation was not fully mature when it was issued to them.

I was pretty sure someone would come up with some obscure limited issue rifle and pick at the timing. But "Limited Issue" =/= "General Issue."

More to the point, it still doesn't make a bolt action "nearly automatic."

If you want to quibble about what general issue means, the Garand wasn't in general issue since the M1903 Springfield, the M1917 Enfield and the M1941 Johnson were in use by US troops during the war. During WW1, the German Luftstreitkrafte used several thousand Mondragon semi-autos until Anthony Fokker perfected his synchronized machine gun system. The point is a limited issue weapon can be considered as a general issue weapon if the personnel using it use little to no other weapons and have a narrow scope of duties. If all troops doing job X use weapon Y, it's in general issue even if other troops use other weapons.

Lastly the M1895 Navy Lee, UK Lee-Enfield and Austro-Hungarian Mannlichers could maintain rates of fire in the area of 20-35 rounds per minute while many gas semi-autos had rates of 30-45 RPM. This means "nearly" does fit in this context as the word is subjective.