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Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?

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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:34 pm

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NinaKatarina wrote:I'd love to see some sort of Emperor of Japan parallel with the Grand Vicar. The generals were running the war and more or less ignoring him, forgetting that he still had huge power in the eyes of the common folk. So, when the emperor surrendered, they realized that he was not so powerless after all and they were forced to follow.


intresting. however i get the impression that the grand vicar has trouble choosing socks without "advice" from trynair.

so I really doubt he has enough spare brain cells to try anything similar.
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?
Post by Charybdis   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:49 pm

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NinaKatarina wrote:I'd love to see some sort of Emperor of Japan parallel with the Grand Vicar. The generals were running the war and more or less ignoring him, forgetting that he still had huge power in the eyes of the common folk. So, when the emperor surrendered, they realized that he was not so powerless after all and they were forced to follow.

Interesting comparison but you are comparing two different technology eras that forecloses the ability of the Grand Vicar / Trynair to do that end-run! Hirohito was able to seize an opportunity to record (on an actual record) his surrender command for nation-wide broadcast by radio. Even this was a close-run thing as there was considerable effort by 'Young Turk' officers of the IJA to place him under Army-controlled house arrest.

The Grand Vicar Erek XVII is much more like the Emperor of the Japan Shogunate Era, a proclamation-issuing figurehead, controlled by his 'advisors' and without any real voice of his own. Besides, lacking an instant communication method, what could he accomplish? Hirohito had the advantage of having been seen in movie newsreels and heard on previous radio addresses. The Grand Vicar had a title and a throne but otherwise no-one really had heard him or seen much of him. ;)
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?
Post by munroburton   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:31 pm

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I have the suspicion that Trynair is fading into the background partly to lull Clyntahn into a false sense of security where Trynair is concerned.

Duchairn is too obviously an opponent to Clyntahn to be successful. It's the McQueen dilemma - too good to lose, but too dangerous to keep.

The way I see things going down is, Duchairn attempts to overthrow Clyntahn, but fails. Trynair picks the ball up when Duchairn falls and deals with Clyntahn.

Or Trynair creates a surprise distraction for Clyntahn, enabling Duchairn to succeed.
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?
Post by Hildum   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:50 pm

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NinaKatarina wrote:I'd love to see some sort of Emperor of Japan parallel with the Grand Vicar. The generals were running the war and more or less ignoring him, forgetting that he still had huge power in the eyes of the common folk. So, when the emperor surrendered, they realized that he was not so powerless after all and they were forced to follow.


I do not think this is particularly accurate. In reality, the army and navy were deadlocked in the cabinet over the continuation of the war. The emperor was brought in to break the deadlock, and even then there was a very, very nearly successful coup attempt to continue the war.

Remember, the Imperial Japanese Army in particular was basically out of control; the Pacific War was started in the 1930s by mid level commanders disobeying both their direct chain of command and the wishes of the Emperor.
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:59 pm

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For that matter, the Powers-That-Be in Zion had ways to deal to Grand Vicars who didn't keep their "proper" place.

At least one Grand Vicar had a fatal accident.

You can be sure that the current one knows about what could happen to him if he sets out of line.

No matter what control Trynair has over him, the Grand Vicar likely knows that Clyntahn would do worse to him.


Charybdis wrote:
NinaKatarina wrote:I'd love to see some sort of Emperor of Japan parallel with the Grand Vicar. The generals were running the war and more or less ignoring him, forgetting that he still had huge power in the eyes of the common folk. So, when the emperor surrendered, they realized that he was not so powerless after all and they were forced to follow.

Interesting comparison but you are comparing two different technology eras that forecloses the ability of the Grand Vicar / Trynair to do that end-run! Hirohito was able to seize an opportunity to record (on an actual record) his surrender command for nation-wide broadcast by radio. Even this was a close-run thing as there was considerable effort by 'Young Turk' officers of the IJA to place him under Army-controlled house arrest.

The Grand Vicar Erek XVII is much more like the Emperor of the Japan Shogunate Era, a proclamation-issuing figurehead, controlled by his 'advisors' and without any real voice of his own. Besides, lacking an instant communication method, what could he accomplish? Hirohito had the advantage of having been seen in movie newsreels and heard on previous radio addresses. The Grand Vicar had a title and a throne but otherwise no-one really had heard him or seen much of him. ;)
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Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:47 am

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DrakBibliophile wrote:For that matter, the Powers-That-Be in Zion had ways to deal to Grand Vicars who didn't keep their "proper" place.

At least one Grand Vicar had a fatal accident.

You can be sure that the current one knows about what could happen to him if he sets out of line.

No matter what control Trynair has over him, the Grand Vicar likely knows that Clyntahn would do worse to him.



I know that you have this right, Drak. But at the same time I can't help but wonder how long it's going to take someone to decide Clyntahn is too dangerous to have around and do something about it... You know like a pistol hidden under a robe, a knife between the ribs or whatever.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:32 am

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n7axw wrote:I know that you have this right, Drak. But at the same time I can't help but wonder how long it's going to take someone to decide Clyntahn is too dangerous to have around and do something about it... You know like a pistol hidden under a robe, a knife between the ribs or whatever.

Don

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Well the problem with that is that any would-be assassin is highly unlikely to survive the attempt, successful or not. And most of the people you're talking about would like to live.

Remember, all the guards in and around the Temple have been replaced with Inquisitors loyal to Clyntahn.
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:08 am

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evilauthor wrote:
Remember, all the guards in and around the Temple have been replaced with Inquisitors loyal to Clyntahn.


That's the current impression, at least. The point is, if something does happen, it will be a surprise for the Temple and a unexpected plot twist for the reader.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?-spoiler
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:58 am

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Spoiler Alert

Charybdis wrote:I know that this has been batted about several times but as I am rereading the series I am finding it hard to reconcile how STRONG he was to how apparently weak he is now. In OAR he is the one who gives Archbishop Dynnys his marching orders about Charis. In BSRA it is made clear that he is the kingmaker of the Council and the puppet master of the Grand Vicar. In BHD he is the one who 'beards' Vicar Clyntahn over the Ferayd Massacre and forces him to do humiliating public penance!

Yet in HFQ he is shown as a placeholder in the Gang of Four, someone who merely attends and has no apparent duties other than being the despised Chancellor that no one likes or respects. A man who has climbed to the top rung in the CoGA only to become this shadow? I know the stated reasons, but that the power survivor of that climb not being able to adapt just doesn't seem right!

Anybody else find this anomalous? Could this be a trap set by MWW?


We know that Helm Cleaver is assassinating Vicars who support Clyntahn. We also know that Traynair is a cold blooded and calculating politician. He was the one that arranged for the current Grand Vicar's election. Considering what's on Rohbair's, Allayn's and Clyntahn's plate right now, who is REALLY watching the selection process for the replacement Vicars? I submit that Traynair is keeping to his knitting and focusing on the politics he is so good at. The current reliability of the Vicarage's vote on ANY issue is less locked up than I suspect Clyntahn realizes.

If Clyntahn dies of anything less than a sword thrust through the heart by a wild eyed assassin denouncing God and the Archangels and glorifying the pleasures of drinking the blood of children and virginal maidens in the Place of Martyrs before several thousand witnesses, the Inquisition won't be able to simply take over. They would have to have the Vicarage vote in a Grand Inquisitor to give their continued near absolute power legitimacy. Any action the Inquisition takes that appears to subvert the orthodoxy of centralized CoGA control would convince anyone still on the fence that the jihad and all the atrocities and dislocations associated with it was an error brought on by Clyntahn.

The Inquisition might well retain physical control of Zion if they chose to impose their will, but they would not be able to maintain control over anything outside Zion. The jihad would grind to a halt as the forces in the field would be starved for resources. Eventually, AoG forces loyal to the CoGA would relieve Zion and regain control over the Inquisition.

All told the Inquisition cannot retain power based on their guardianship of orthodoxy unless they submit to the Vicarage for a confirmation vote on Clyntahn's replacement. If they reject a vote, the CoGA would also dissolve into civil war or at least the secular states reclaiming more local autonomy. Enter Traynair. If he selects the right replacements for the assassinated vicars, the vicarage could actually play a game of chicken with the Inquisition. The Inquisition would either submit to the Vicars' vote or have everything fall apart and allow the heretics to enter Zion and kill every Inquisitor they find. If the Inquisition invites that sort of disaster, would any of them find refuge from the heretics hunting them? I submit none would. In such a case the Inquisition would have failed in their guardianship of CoGA orthodoxy. I further Submit that Rayno is not only smart enough to realize these unpalatable possibilities but also a passionate enough believer in orthodoxy to do something to stem the tides pushing Safehold towards those possibilities.

The only way Traynair can manage this is if Rayno allows him to succeed. As I said, something is odd about the way the scenes involving Rayno are written in the books. I don't believe Rayno is actively working with Traynair. I do believe that Traynair is doing what he does best while giving Clyntahn the impression he is cowed.
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Re: Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?-spoiler
Post by Louis R   » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:02 pm

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If Trynair really is sitting back and calculating coldly - and I remain to be convinced on that score - his calculation is almost certainly still that Clyntahn will win the Jihad. With the Church, and therefore the Vicarate, firmly back on top on Safehold, one of Clyntahn's major props - the fear for their future positions - will evaporate, and the Vicars will realise that the only thing left for them to fear is Fear Himself. At that point, with the Grand Vicar firmly behind him, any move by the Chancellor to arraign the Grand Inquisitor and his senior lieutenants for the multitude of violations of Church law that they have committed, and that he has been rather carefully not pointing out are not excused by the declaration of Jihad, will prove wildly popular in the corridors of power. As a further line in the ledger, he no doubt calculates that Duchairn will go down before the end - and that dealing with his killer will be equally popular in the streets of Zion.

PeterZ wrote:Spoiler Alert

Charybdis wrote:I know that this has been batted about several times but as I am rereading the series I am finding it hard to reconcile how STRONG he was to how apparently weak he is now. In OAR he is the one who gives Archbishop Dynnys his marching orders about Charis. In BSRA it is made clear that he is the kingmaker of the Council and the puppet master of the Grand Vicar. In BHD he is the one who 'beards' Vicar Clyntahn over the Ferayd Massacre and forces him to do humiliating public penance!

Yet in HFQ he is shown as a placeholder in the Gang of Four, someone who merely attends and has no apparent duties other than being the despised Chancellor that no one likes or respects. A man who has climbed to the top rung in the CoGA only to become this shadow? I know the stated reasons, but that the power survivor of that climb not being able to adapt just doesn't seem right!

Anybody else find this anomalous? Could this be a trap set by MWW?


We know that Helm Cleaver is assassinating Vicars who support Clyntahn. We also know that Traynair is a cold blooded and calculating politician. He was the one that arranged for the current Grand Vicar's election. Considering what's on Rohbair's, Allayn's and Clyntahn's plate right now, who is REALLY watching the selection process for the replacement Vicars? I submit that Traynair is keeping to his knitting and focusing on the politics he is so good at. The current reliability of the Vicarage's vote on ANY issue is less locked up than I suspect Clyntahn realizes.

If Clyntahn dies of anything less than a sword thrust through the heart by a wild eyed assassin denouncing God and the Archangels and glorifying the pleasures of drinking the blood of children and virginal maidens in the Place of Martyrs before several thousand witnesses, the Inquisition won't be able to simply take over. They would have to have the Vicarage vote in a Grand Inquisitor to give their continued near absolute power legitimacy. Any action the Inquisition takes that appears to subvert the orthodoxy of centralized CoGA control would convince anyone still on the fence that the jihad and all the atrocities and dislocations associated with it was an error brought on by Clyntahn.

The Inquisition might well retain physical control of Zion if they chose to impose their will, but they would not be able to maintain control over anything outside Zion. The jihad would grind to a halt as the forces in the field would be starved for resources. Eventually, AoG forces loyal to the CoGA would relieve Zion and regain control over the Inquisition.

All told the Inquisition cannot retain power based on their guardianship of orthodoxy unless they submit to the Vicarage for a confirmation vote on Clyntahn's replacement. If they reject a vote, the CoGA would also dissolve into civil war or at least the secular states reclaiming more local autonomy. Enter Traynair. If he selects the right replacements for the assassinated vicars, the vicarage could actually play a game of chicken with the Inquisition. The Inquisition would either submit to the Vicars' vote or have everything fall apart and allow the heretics to enter Zion and kill every Inquisitor they find. If the Inquisition invites that sort of disaster, would any of them find refuge from the heretics hunting them? I submit none would. In such a case the Inquisition would have failed in their guardianship of CoGA orthodoxy. I further Submit that Rayno is not only smart enough to realize these unpalatable possibilities but also a passionate enough believer in orthodoxy to do something to stem the tides pushing Safehold towards those possibilities.

The only way Traynair can manage this is if Rayno allows him to succeed. As I said, something is odd about the way the scenes involving Rayno are written in the books. I don't believe Rayno is actively working with Traynair. I do believe that Traynair is doing what he does best while giving Clyntahn the impression he is cowed.
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