Fortress Command

I have been thinking for a few days now about the forts guarding the Junction in the Manticore System and Basilik at the beginning of the war. Basically if I remember correctly the smallest one was 16 million tons, I don’t remember what the largest one was if it was even mentioned but that represents a lot of money/tonnage/manpower for a stationary battle system.

Assuming on a low end cost comparison 1 fort at 16-20 million tons’ equals to 1.75 SD’s and the Manticore Home system had around 124 forts at the beginning of the war then it would have been the equivalent of 217 SD’s and that assumes that ~16,000,000 tons of fort translates to 14,000,000 tons of SD’s.

Ignoring the political situation for the moment, would the SKM have been in a much stronger position at the beginning of the first war with 217 SD’s more in their fleet rather than the having the forts?

And keep in mind that my calculation is based on 124 forts at the smallest size of 16 million tons, if we assume that they can be up to 20 or 24 million tons on the large once and the average is say 18 or 20 million tons per fort and the price/manpower translates nicely ton for ton we could see even more SD’s. For example, at 19,000,000 tons and 1:1 ratio it would be around 294 SD’s more in the fleet but without any forts.


The RMN started the war with 188 SD’s and 121 DN’s, now if they had skipped over the forts and gone ahead with adding another 256 SD’s (mid point between 217 and 294) the RMN would have had superiority in SD’s and DN’s even if they did not have anything equaling the BB’s that Haven had, this would have made sure that Haven would have though once or twice about attacking the SKM if they had numerical Parity and technologically they were inferior.

So the question boils down to this:
Would Manticore have been in a stronger position or weaker?


To me this would have made the RMN significantly stronger because as soon as they took Trevor's Star, they could have released 100 or more SD's for offensive operations not to mention having those 188 SD's and 121 DN's fully committed on the offensive from day one.

First you have to see it political: "You couldn´t attack someone with a fort, because it have to stay in your homesystem!" At the begin of the Story there were some political factions thats don´t want any Expansion of manticore. Even the control of the Basilisk System was to much in their eyes, so you explain them the need of stationay forts, but they wouldn´t agree to a big wall fleet!

Second you have to think about fortresses! For every vehicle is the mass the central Point! You Need energy to move a mass. If you use the mass of a ship for engines you get a fast, but weak ship. If you use the most of the mass for Armor/weapons you get a slow but strong ship!
A fort is stationary! It don´t move! Mass doesn´t matter! You can add Armour and weapons without end to the installion. So in the end, you can get more firepower per soldier with a fortress than with a ship. The bad side of a fortress is the lack of flexibility! It is were you build it and not somewere else!

Where is it stated they had 124 forts built prewar? I can't find the reference.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it.

The short version is that the Junction has to be defended. That's really a non-negotiable point. The loss of the infrastructure supporting the Junction traffic would be just as devastating as losing the shipyards, at least in terms of long term financial impact. So whether SDs or fortresses, Manticore has to commit to the Junction's defense. That being the case, if you're going to be tying up that much weight of metal defending a particular point in space that doesn't move, you might as well do it with the most effective platform possible. Ergo, fortresses.

The long version? David has commented a few times on fortresses. Look up his posts in the following topics:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2161
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2928
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3029

Duckk wrote:The short version is that the Junction has to be defended. That's really a non-negotiable point. The loss of the infrastructure supporting the Junction traffic would be just as devastating as losing the shipyards, at least in terms of long term financial impact. So whether SDs or fortresses, Manticore has to commit to the Junction's defense. That being the case, if you're going to be tying up that much weight of metal defending a particular point in space that doesn't move, you might as well do it with the most effective platform possible. Ergo, fortresses.

The long version? David has commented a few times on fortresses. Look up his posts in the following topics:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2161
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2928
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3029

Ill read the topics shortly, but the most effective platform would be the one that can be used for offensive purposes as soon as the threat to the Junction from Trevor's Star is removed. Having SD's would have freedom of movement to help protect the Home planet(s) as well as the junction. the RMN has the duty to protect the home system and the Junction, having 250+ SD's in firepower at the junction is nice especially when backed up by Home Fleet, but that 250+ SD's of firepower can do nothing to protect the 3 planets in the home system or the Yards.


A mass transit by SD's would allow only about 25-30 SD's in one go and prevent reinforcements for the better part of a day, even surprised, the enhanced Home Fleet would be able to deal with such an attack with lower losses than the enemy.

In essence, for me is comes down to that the 250+ SD's that would be assigned to Home Fleet would be able to protect the Junction, Manticore and the other two planets as well as all shipyards.

David covers your arguments in his posts. Short version: the RMN doesn't want them to be able to go elsewhere. They didn't want the temptation to be there to use them elsewhere. It's much the same argument as arming the Nikes with Mk-16s. You can't be tempted to use the capability you don't have.

Maldorian wrote:First you have to see it political: "You couldn´t attack someone with a fort, because it have to stay in your homesystem!" At the begin of the Story there were some political factions thats don´t want any Expansion of manticore. Even the control of the Basilisk System was to much in their eyes, so you explain them the need of stationay forts, but they wouldn´t agree to a big wall fleet!

Second you have to think about fortresses! For every vehicle is the mass the central Point! You Need energy to move a mass. If you use the mass of a ship for engines you get a fast, but weak ship. If you use the most of the mass for Armor/weapons you get a slow but strong ship!
A fort is stationary! It don´t move! Mass doesn´t matter! You can add Armour and weapons without end to the installion. So in the end, you can get more firepower per soldier with a fortress than with a ship. The bad side of a fortress is the lack of flexibility! It is were you build it and not somewere else!

1)I think if the RMN was not building forts, they would have been able to scrape a majority to agree to SD's, after all a portion of the political parties would have preferred no military at all, at the end of the day, we are not talking about a change in the budget, just a change in priorities.


2)124 forts of various sizes with the smallest being 16 million tons, this represents an awesome amount of firepower to protect one asset(The Junction)but cannot in a timely manner assist the(in my opinion) more important objects that are the three inhabited planets and their shipyards. Also add to the fact that once Trevor's Star is captured the necessity for those forts largely disappears. So with SD's, instead of freeing that manpower little by little while trying to get ships for the free manpower you would instead be able to slash Home Fleet by 50 or 60% and send those free ships over to the front.


With Forts, even though they are individually more powerful than equal weigh in SD's, they can be easily defeated if Haven had launched an attack on Manticore in such a force as to destroy Home Fleet and force the Capital to surrender and those forts would be largely useless to prevent that surrender or their own subsequent surrender.

Duckk wrote:David covers your arguments in his posts. Short version: the RMN doesn't want them to be able to go elsewhere. They didn't want the temptation to be there to use them elsewhere. It's much the same argument as arming the Nikes with Mk-16s. You can't be tempted to use the capability you don't have.

Doesn't make sense to me, the whole purpose of the fleet buildup is to 1) be a deterrent and 2) when war starts be able to fight it. Those forts are about as much a deterrent as the Maginot Line was for the Germans. Haven could have attacked and defeat all that firepower by avoiding it and capturing the Home planet instead.

Sigs wrote:

Duckk wrote:David covers your arguments in his posts. Short version: the RMN doesn't want them to be able to go elsewhere. They didn't want the temptation to be there to use them elsewhere. It's much the same argument as arming the Nikes with Mk-16s. You can't be tempted to use the capability you don't have.

Doesn't make sense to me, the whole purpose of the fleet buildup is to 1) be a deterrent and 2) when war starts be able to fight it. Those forts are about as much a deterrent as the Maginot Line was for the Germans. Haven could have attacked and defeat all that firepower by avoiding it and capturing the Home planet instead.

The Maginot Line did work the Germans did not attack it directly. They went around it or flew over it. It was perfect against the tactics and weapons of the first World War.

pnakasone wrote:
Doesn't make sense to me, the whole purpose of the fleet buildup is to 1) be a deterrent and 2) when war starts be able to fight it. Those forts are about as much a deterrent as the Maginot Line was for the Germans. Haven could have attacked and defeat all that firepower by avoiding it and capturing the Home planet instead.

The Maginot Line did work the Germans did not attack it directly. They went around it or flew over it. It was perfect against the tactics and weapons of the first World War.[/quote]

That's my point, the Germans went AROUND it. That sort of made it irrelevant. That is one of the major problems with fixed defences, unless they are covering the objective you need, people can generally go around them.

Haven did not want the Junction, they wanted Manticore and the Junction going after Manticore they fight the Mobile units of Home Fleet while the forts sit and watch, and once Manticore is forced to surrender so are the Forts or they will watch Haven bombard Manticore.