Honorverse ramblings and musings

And what we've been telling you is that the League has been a ramshackle structure for centuries. The League's collapse was set in motion the moment the drafters decided they wanted a confederacy with little central power. This is not something that has come out of nowhere. The decay and rot had set in long before - the confrontation with Manticore is just the final push.

You are a good bloke Citha and i enjoy you posts on this forum (usually) but you appear to be locked in to your postion, when to me and apparently many others it is a vastly different one to what the books state.

now just because i'm with most people doesn't automatically mean i'm right, i accept that I'm human and so a mistake can happen, so i'm going to hit the high points once more and leave it there

1) no state of war exists. FULL STOP

2) defacto is not good enough, constitution says war must be declared for SLN to try and order around Beowulf Gov or SDF. the bit about lawyers is simply as it is things that have never been used and there could justifiably be some division on what exactly governments rights are nowadays. any normal govement/person on hearing Beowulfs view weeks before raging justice would have called off the plan while the claim was verified

3)If you can see you neighbour has set his house of fire do you let him throw more petrol (gasoline for you yanks) on the fire? that is essentially what letting Trang transit would have been. more dead ships, or if lucky surrender and P.O.W.

I am willing to admit that firing on the ships wanting to trasnit might not have really been legal but my above point about petrol stands, there are times when moral trumps legal

overall the point is clear.

neither the mandirns nor the SLN had the right to order them to do ANYTHING as no state of war had been declared. firing on the SLN would possibly have been illegal, i view it more as self defense or restraining a violent gun wielding nut. technically you may be in the wrong legally, but the moral cost of letting them do what the want was higher then the legal of preventing them

and that's it. we've been beating on this horse for several pages, the time has come to move on. we can agree to disagree and talk about other things that we can agree on.

like what the devil did Queen (princess) Adrieene name her 'cat?

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:You got one thing right. Caparelli didn't order Operation Decapitated Chicken. Saint Just negotiated it, then Janacek ordered it. Thus decapitating that frightened Manticoran chicken into backing off from certain victory when they were just across the street from Haven's back door! In Soul of Steel's defense -- she wasn't clucking like a chicken in tune with her frightened government worth a dam. Fat good it did her.

I'm talking about the conflict with the League. I took you to be talking about the conflict with the League. The bit where Manticore got a truce with Haven and never bothered to get peace with them has no relevance.

You're arguing semantics with me. All of the citizens and regions of Germany weren't the Ally's enemies either. But they were powerless to do anything!

And every League member system is powerless in the face of... The Office of Education and Information? The Battle Fleet that loses SD's to cruisers time and again? The Frontier Fleet that serves as little more than a reminder that Battle Fleet is somewhere and could be here?

And the comparison is moot, because - yet again! - you're missing where the League isn't remotely a unified state. No one owes it allegiance. No one is stuck with it, other than OFS protectorates, which state lasts exactly as long as OFS can threaten them effectively. Germans interested in opting out of WWII had to conspire to overthrow their government. League member systems interested in opting out the League's dust-up with the GA can do so quite effectively under the table, or - if they want to be bold about it - by notifying Old Chicago that they're seceding. The entire machinery of system government would work to carry out that directive; you're not working against it, or violating a law, or betraying an oath.

And just where in GA's God-green Earth are they going to get all of the ships to protect these rebellious member states all the way in Solarian space? When they can't even protect one lone Beowulf! -- that's just down the street from it! But they can convince these, centuries frightened of the League states, that they can -- especially after the aftermath of Beowulf.

Puh-lease!

Have you got an advance copy of the next book in which the GA fails to defend Beowulf? There ought to be a spoiler warning here.

Barring that, where would you get the impression that failure is going to happen? If you'd like to make that case hypothetically, things may be a whole lot worse for the GA and certainly Beowulf and bets are off. But if we're not assuming that hypothetically, it looks like a wildly implausible assumption.

So, projecting forward on the basis of the SLN either not attacking Beowulf or failing miserably, I don't see any horrible loss of GA cred happening there. Seceding all alone with no SDF on top of a capable FF base and with no warning for potential GA help will get people spanked, and setting the GA up for that kind of problem was Firebrand's latest operation. It didn't work out well, but that doesn't guarantee that it cannot happen elsewhere.

But for the most part, FF does its job just showing the flag and relying on the implicit threat of Battle Fleet. BF's losing its threat value, so FF isn't going to be able to do the job just showing up. A pretty meager SDF could stand up to a single FF destroyer trying to assert League authority - illegally, which may matter to some FF officers; and without the guarantee of being paid anymore, which is going to matter to many more of them. And then they have to worry about a single GA destroyer showing up and blowing their doors off when they get word.

Overall, that FF ship trying to assert League authority is going to end up with all the concerns of a pirate with none of the income and far more people to pay. Kingsford really ought not to count on that kind of order getting followed; the officers in that chain of command ought not to expect good results.

I was simply informing you that if there is an Operation Decapitated Chicken that it is already past. And that Saint Just and Janacek own patents.

All I did was said that the RMN are going to be running around like a chicken with their heads cut off... And you upped the ante.

If you disagree with the analogy, maybe you have another way to explain how the RMN, with its limited number of ships are going to realistically be able to coerce enough of a cluster of thousands of League worlds to secede to make a bit of difference, simultaneously protecting them once they do, protecting their shipping, protecting their own shipping, protecting their rear areas, maintaining a Home fleet presence (in three nations) -- again, to make a bit of difference in the span of one bo--, no, by next book, if they don't get that chicken moving. And I do mean fast!

Realistically.

cthia wrote:I'm going to attempt to slow this horse down a bit. Before I do, a little disclaimer.

Yes, it is true that I have only read all of the mainline stories only once. A couple I've read twice. IINM, I haven't read but three of the peripeheral titles because of my limited time yatta yatta yatta, and because what I'd really like is time to reread the main titles -- where Honor is found! I apologize to everyone, yet again for those shortcomings. But I did indeed read the mains once and I did indeed assimilate, at least, parts of it quite well. Perhaps some aspects I need to reread. But this IS NOT one of them. I paid close attention here because I thought Manticore was sticking its head in a hornet's nest, along with Beowulf. I still feel that way. I feel that the League has more than enough of a legal standing to stick it to Beowulf! I'm not just playing devil's advocate on this issue. I don't like the League either. But right is right and wrong is wrong. Having said that...

Everyone keeps arguing my point for me, but you don't want to accept what's right in front of you because of your prejudice against the League. It would be my opinion that you'd have a pretty difficult time in a debate club because you show an uncanny affinity for an inability to fairly argue both sides.

Duckk wrote:Again, read the text. There is no way this can be any more clear:

First, let's agree on some common ground. It IS clear. There: common ground. However, what it's not is 'clear cut!' -- not for Beowulf. Not by a long shot! Which even seems evident by Beowulf's own admission, if you'll read closely enough -- between the lines -- in your own posted textev.

So we've got plenty of wiggle room to keep the lawyers happy for the odd decade or two if they try to push it. Which means that if we do turn them down, refuse to cooperate, we can legitimately argue we're within our rights under the Constitution.

Words like 'wiggle' room, argue and keeping the lawyers busy for a decade or two does not claim certainty of an open and shut case. Which is realistic, because it bespeaks culpability.

Let's face it, Beowulf's entire defense hinges on one thing. You were kind enough to embolden it...

Under Article Five of the Constitution, we can refuse to place the System-Defense Force under federal control unless the League's formally at war,

The League was at war! What the heck did Beowulf think that the SLN forces trying to transit the junction were going to do -- other than attack, what it perceived as its enemies - deliver a mass shipment of Girl Scout cookies?

Before you get your undies in a twist, no it wasn't a formal declaration of war. Yea, yea, yea. It was a de facto state of war. A form of a 'state of war.' A 'de facto state of war' whose esistence the Manticorans themselves acknowledged to the League.

It is an officer's job to make decisions on the spot in the best interest of his or her government. Admiral Tsang was acting according to her orders that she received from her League superiors to move to the support of Eleventh Fleet who were already engaged beyond the junction. They received resistance from the Beowulf System Defense Force - treason! Manticore is inside of the League's communication loop. Communiques between the League and its forces aren't particularly expedient. Who are the BSDF to question a League naval operation in Solarian space?! Their autonomy DOES NOT extend to include defiant treason and occlusion. It was NOT in Beowulf's power to question or hinder the League's authority to wage war. They can log their reservations but that is it. Who's to say that a formal permission to Tsang's fleet by the (League proper) not the Mandarins, was in transit?

No! The BSDF did not have the authority to grant passage thru the junction. Nor did they have authority to deny! Sure, Beowulf had reason to believe that the League was being coerced by certain third parties. But that did NOT give them the right to make a military move against its own League navy because it thought the League was in error. Heck, Honor was in the EXACT same position. But she did her duty! Honor didn't WANT to continue operations against the Republic -- But. she. did. her. duty!

Officers, and perhaps governments can make decisions according to their conscience. Terekhov did it in Monica. Henke did it. Honor did it many times. But they were all subject to be disavowed by their governments. If the SL government does not support the actions of Beowulf. They are screwed, legally!

Would everyone please stop saying that the League isn't one large entity? Please? From the beginning everyone accepted that they were. That they are a collective 800 lb. gorilla. Not thousands of (mg) premature apes. Stop with the convenience bit. You're worse than Panther fans who claim they were always Panther fans. lol

Beowulf's legal case is evidentiarily bereft.

Dither as you will Cthia, but you keep missing one point, even though you keep pointing to it.

Under Article Five of the Constitution, we can refuse to place the System-Defense Force under federal control unless the League's formally at war, [/b]

Formally. Not de Facto, not de jure - Formally. There need to be an official Declaration of War, voted upon and ratified by the Assembly of Stars to allow the SLN to mobilize the SDFs. And there has been no vote or declaration. Until then the loose confederation rules specifically written into the league constitution gelding the central government and specifically EMPOWERING the individual member systems is still in place.

In short, the rules say the Beowulf (and the rest of the member systems) has a say whether or not there is a state of war BEFORE the government has a right to use it's fleet. And that has not happened, and Beowulf knows it.

Dauntless wrote:You are a good bloke Citha and i enjoy you posts on this forum (usually) but you appear to be locked in to your postion, when to me and apparently many others it is a vastly different one to what the books state.

now just because i'm with most people doesn't automatically mean i'm right, i accept that I'm human and so a mistake can happen, so i'm going to hit the high points once more and leave it there

1) no state of war exists. FULL STOP

2) defacto is not good enough, constitution says war must be declared for SLN to try and order around Beowulf Gov or SDF. the bit about lawyers is simply as it is things that have never been used and there could justifiably be some division on what exactly governments rights are nowadays. any normal govement/person on hearing Beowulfs view weeks before raging justice would have called off the plan while the claim was verified

3)If you can see you neighbour has set his house of fire do you let him throw more petrol (gasoline for you yanks) on the fire? that is essentially what letting Trang transit would have been. more dead ships, or if lucky surrender and P.O.W.

I am willing to admit that firing on the ships wanting to trasnit might not have really been legal but my above point about petrol stands, there are times when moral trumps legal

overall the point is clear.

neither the mandirns nor the SLN had the right to order them to do ANYTHING as no state of war had been declared. firing on the SLN would possibly have been illegal, i view it more as self defense or restraining a violent gun wielding nut. technically you may be in the wrong legally, but the moral cost of letting them do what the want was higher then the legal of preventing them

and that's it. we've been beating on this horse for several pages, the time has come to move on. we can agree to disagree and talk about other things that we can agree on.

like what the devil did Queen (princess) Adrieene name her 'cat?

Ok, fair enough. Since I'm the instigator of this skirmish, I'll supply a mutual out.

Blame it on RFC. He did it. He's responsible. David built up the League. 800 lb. gorilla. Thousands of worlds. Thousands of ships. Incredible industry. No, astronomical industry. Infinitely more bodies to spend on the war effort. A dwarfing economy.

Yet it can't win a single battle. Dies at the peak of boo!

Oh, whatever. I'm done too.

However, in David's defense I did read somewhere where he realizes his dilemma when he says that he will resolve the conflict with the League in what he thinks will be satisfactory to his readers. I can hope.

Everyone can remove the ice pack now.

Hopefully we are done with the "Jeeves, could you give them a taste of the Maxim again?" style battles.

Duckk wrote:And what we've been telling you is that the League has been a ramshackle structure for centuries. The League's collapse was set in motion the moment the drafters decided they wanted a confederacy with little central power. This is not something that has come out of nowhere. The decay and rot had set in long before - the confrontation with Manticore is just the final push.

Eh, I suspect the League could have continued on for centuries more at minimum if it wasn't being systematically sabotaged by agents of a hostile foreign power. The rot was deliberately created, and efforts to reduce or eliminate it actively sabotaged. It couldn't possibly have a strong, fast-acting central government because of how it was set up. The lack of that didn't need to be a problem.

cthia wrote:Blame it on RFC. He did it. He's responsible. David built up the League. 800 lb. gorilla. Thousands of worlds. Thousands of ships. Incredible industry. No, astronomical industry. Infinitely more bodies to spend on the war effort. A dwarfing economy.

Yet it can't win a single battle. Dies at the peak of boo!

Oh, whatever. I'm done too.

However, in David's defense I did read somewhere where he realizes his dilemma when he says that he will resolve the conflict with the League in what he thinks will be satisfactory to his readers. I can hope.

Everyone can remove the ice pack now.

Well up until about 20 years ago the Legue's active battle fleet would have been able to crush anybody else and the ramshackle nature of the Legue wouldn't much matter becsuse something like Raging Justice launched at the beginning of the first war could have taken out Manticore or Haven. And with a short victorious undeclared war there wouldn't have been the stresses that seem all but certain to cause the Legue to disentigrate now.

But Battlefleet slipped from "out of date; but overwhelming numbers" to "mere targets" by failing to modernize through arguably at least two major revolutions in naval warfare.
That's like Great Britain having the largest fleet of pre-dreadnaughts and keeping them, without any improvements in fire control or defenses for 40 years and going against the US Pacific Fleet. It doesn't matter how outnumbered the US ships might be; even the battleships have a 10+ knot advantage, at least 5,000 more usable yards of effective gun range (combination of increased elevation and predictive fire control and director spotting) and the carriers can find and attack from over the horizon with the pre-dreads having scarcely a weapon that can bother the planes.
You miss two major warfare revolutions and numbers usually cease to matter.

cthia wrote:If you disagree with the analogy, maybe you have another way to explain how the RMN, with its limited number of ships are going to realistically be able to coerce enough of a cluster of thousands of League worlds to secede to make a bit of difference, simultaneously protecting them once they do, protecting their shipping, protecting their own shipping, protecting their rear areas, maintaining a Home fleet presence (in three nations) -- again, to make a bit of difference in the span of one bo--, no, by next book, if they don't get that chicken moving. And I do mean fast!

Realistically.

10th Fleet is ripping up a couple of OFS sectors already, so they're not sitting on their hands.

With that door kicked in, there may well be other resistance movements getting a start from the Alignment that the GA will be able to help along the same way. (Hopefully not too many that do get left hanging.)

Frontier Fleet base locations aren't secret, and merely obscure knowledge (if it's even that) is well within the means of Beowulf's intelligence services and the information collected by Manticore's merchant shipping - even before FF units got captured with databases intact. Those sources may have some ideas about where the OFS boot is especially unwelcome too, for where to go punching out FF units on behalf of people to make the GA the people wearing the white hats.

Frontier Fleet isn't large - certainly not relative to what it has to do. It's not the 800 pound gorilla in any sense. And the commerce raiding will mean drawing it away from those places and into GA sites, where system defenses can do the work and ships are free to go running about lifting the OFS boot.

After Second Manticore, whether or not the GA has to leave Battle Fleet formations alone before they come do something suspect isn't clear to me. If they try to jump a founding Core world for exercising a constitutional right to secede, it's not even suspect - Beowulf's white hat is firmly on hunting BF formations anywhere doing anything. BF formations that are hiding where the GA may politically not care to go after them will at any rate not be suppressing any secessionists or Verge independence movements or looking like anything anyone has to take seriously.

No, the GA isn't going to be be able to put in place in every one of nearly 2000 star systems defenses capable of standing off the whole of the SLN coming for blood. If that's your bar for realism, I'm sure you'll be disappointed. If they can repeat what they did at Meyers though, there won't be many FF formations with large chunks roaming free - and if they have to be fugitives, they're not going to exercise sufficiently effective oppression anyway. Same goes on a large scale for BF formations, which tend to be much more centralized anyway.

About the contrast between how the League was viewed prior to recently in-universe and what's happening to it -

It's huge. It's been huge. The SLN gets a small bit of the League budget, and the League budget is a tiny, tiny fraction of the wealth of the League. When the League represents all those star systems, it's definitely the 800 pound gorilla. The SLN was dinky relative to that state, but absolutely much larger than anything else - til recently. And the plateau of technologies and tactics meant that it was a qualitative peer at least of any other fleet - til recently. But things have changed, perceptions lagged behind, and reality is making itself known. A few far-sighted sorts clued in on that sooner than others; none of them are in the League, more's the pity for the League.

The League's still huge. When being huge and having the gorilla rep did the job, the gorilla's weak spots didn't draw much attention. That it's a treaty organization trying to act like a state by means of a bureaucracy that's effectively a criminal organization does not make it something well able to be upfront about its failures or problems. It's able to carry on business as usual so long as business remains usual - it's not able to tap any body of confidence or trust to rise to occasions. It can't stand to have a serious setback without inviting a constitutional crisis. And the SLN's reputation has relied on the numbers in the Reserve, that it cannot effectively crew; on the antiquated Battle Fleet, which has gotten painfully antiquated compared to the opposition in the last 30 years and hasn't been prepared to fight for hundreds; and the overextended Frontier Fleet.

The GA doesn't quite have the 16 ton Acme weight to drop on the 800 pound gorilla. Maybe it could beat the stuffing out of it all with straight-up fighting. (Well - as straight-up as it gets when you defeat the enemy entirely outside their range.) But they don't win a peace until all those systems give up being the League, which is going to take exposing it as a bad joke anymore and giving them some time to wrap their heads around life without a League.

Jonathan_S wrote:Well up until about 20 years ago the Legue's active battle fleet would have been able to crush anybody else and the ramshackle nature of the Legue wouldn't much matter becsuse something like Raging Justice launched at the beginning of the first war could have taken out Manticore or Haven. And with a short victorious undeclared war there wouldn't have been the stresses that seem all but certain to cause the Legue to disentigrate now.

But Battlefleet slipped from "out of date; but overwhelming numbers" to "mere targets" by failing to modernize through arguably at least two major revolutions in naval warfare.
That's like Great Britain having the largest fleet of pre-dreadnaughts and keeping them, without any improvements in fire control or defenses for 40 years and going against the US Pacific Fleet. It doesn't matter how outnumbered the US ships might be; even the battleships have a 10+ knot advantage, at least 5,000 more usable yards of effective gun range (combination of increased elevation and predictive fire control and director spotting) and the carriers can find and attack from over the horizon with the pre-dreads having scarcely a weapon that can bother the planes.
You miss two major warfare revolutions and numbers usually cease to matter.

Not to mention that most of the current front line commanding GA admirals are the ones to have survived decades of war. Who now how to use their ships technology edge to maximum effect.

Most is not all of the SLN admirals got their jobs by kissing butt rather then kicking it.