Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?

So what are the CONSEQUENCES of Trynair becoming the weakest member of the Gang of Four? Remembering at the beginning he was co-equal to Clyntahn to the point where he forced a Grand Council discussion of Ferayd and the imposition of public penance upon the person of the Grand Inquisitor!

Now he is still Chancellor but almost without any real power. From master manipulator & kingmaker to worse than Maigwair at the start. So, would that make him a contented man OR a cornered rat? What power does he still retain and/or what knowledge of past things would he likely have for revenge? Does he have any dedication to Church Orthodoxy beyond his comfortable life and his fear of the Inquisition?

Is Vicar Zahmsyn Trynair a ticking timebomb?

Well I doubt very much that he's a "contented" man.

While I don't want to underestimate what any David Weber character can/might do, I'm not sure what he can do besides sit in his corner and try to avoid Clyntahn's wrath.

Charybdis wrote:So what are the CONSEQUENCES of Trynair becoming the weakest member of the Gang of Four? Remembering at the beginning he was co-equal to Clyntahn to the point where he forced a Grand Council discussion of Ferayd and the imposition of public penance upon the person of the Grand Inquisitor!

Now he is still Chancellor but almost without any real power. From master manipulator & kingmaker to worse than Maigwair at the start. So, would that make him a contented man OR a cornered rat? What power does he still retain and/or what knowledge of past things would he likely have for revenge? Does he have any dedication to Church Orthodoxy beyond his comfortable life and his fear of the Inquisition?

Is Vicar Zahmsyn Trynair a ticking timebomb?

DrakBibliophile wrote:Well I doubt very much that he's a "contented" man.

While I don't want to underestimate what any David Weber character can/might do, I'm not sure what he can do besides sit in his corner and try to avoid Clyntahn's wrath.

Part of my problem with this character's "evolution" is statements like this one from "A Mighty Fortress" (AMF pg 44);

Vicar Zahmsyn Trynair was probably as cold-blooded and calculating a chancellor as the Church of God Awaiting had ever produced in all the nine dusty centuries since the Day of Creation.

Such ability is unlikely to just waste away nor is such 'character' going down without a REAL fight!

Charybdis wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Well I doubt very much that he's a "contented" man.

While I don't want to underestimate what any David Weber character can/might do, I'm not sure what he can do besides sit in his corner and try to avoid Clyntahn's wrath.

Part of my problem with this character's "evolution" is statements like this one from "A Mighty Fortress" (AMF pg 44);

Vicar Zahmsyn Trynair was probably as cold-blooded and calculating a chancellor as the Church of God Awaiting had ever produced in all the nine dusty centuries since the Day of Creation.

Such ability is unlikely to just waste away nor is such 'character' going down without a REAL fight!

He may want to fight but with clyntahn going totally off the rails and the army of god pretty firmly in the control of somebody else he does not have access to much "hard" power at this time. With all the purges that were done I would guess a lot of his "Soft" power was found to be guilty of random crimes to undermine his power base. I can't see clyntahn giving up an opportunity to do that if he could get away with it.

I do wonder what the temple guard would do if 3 of the group of 4 and the grand vicar all turned on Clyntahn. Especially after some notable defeat that was his fault (again!) or proof of his lying (again!).
But I don't think that's the way Mr Weber is going with this.

kaid wrote:

Charybdis wrote:Such ability is unlikely to just waste away nor is such 'character' going down without a REAL fight!

He may want to fight but with clyntahn going totally off the rails and the army of god pretty firmly in the control of somebody else he does not have access to much "hard" power at this time. With all the purges that were done I would guess a lot of his "Soft" power was found to be guilty of random crimes to undermine his power base. I can't see clyntahn giving up an opportunity to do that if he could get away with it.

Indeed. The flip side of being cold and calculating is knowing when you do not have a winning hand and minimizing your losses. Trynair's power base now is down to the point that he's still got a seat at the table and he may be able to smooth some things over some times between the other three. But it's entirely plausible his ambitions now are down to staying alive and "safe", and he figures his power base is probably sufficient for that.

He's a canny and capable operator - no doubt. But that doesn't mean that the game cannot change out from under him, and it doesn't mean he's driven to fight to the death if (1) he knows he'd lose, and (2) if he doesn't fight, he can carry on in livable fashion.

OTOH diplomacy is all about cutting deals and finding allies, sometimes unlike!y ones. Not everyone in the Guard, the Vicariate and even the Inquisition is going to be happy about their institutional and personal prospects the way things are going and with Clyntahn in charge. One would expect a cold cynical professional politician who is also being displaced to be quietly finding such people and planning with them, while looking as beaten, meek and helpless as possible in the interim to avoid attracting attention.

I rather doubt that the Church has any mechanism for the deposition of the head of one of the Orders, any more than it does for deposing the Grand Vicar. OTOH, the mechanisms for the defenestration of Grand Vicars do seem to be well established - and I also doubt that the current incumbent is going to overlook that.

As for Vicar Sahmsyn, one should not underestimate the power of terror, any more than that of cunning. However cold and calculating he may have been, that was when _others_ bore the brunt. Faced with the Punishment for himself, it wouldn't be the least bit surprising that his brain was skittering around in circles, chittering like a cockroach. That said, Clyntahn may well be overestimating just how cowed he really is just as he's underestimating Vicar Rhobair's willingness to act on his convictions. And HFQ showed some hints that he was coming back to life, with his protection of Hennet on pragmatic grounds.

martin wrote:I do wonder what the temple guard would do if 3 of the group of 4 and the grand vicar all turned on Clyntahn. Especially after some notable defeat that was his fault (again!) or proof of his lying (again!).
But I don't think that's the way Mr Weber is going with this.

One of the problems with planning any action against Clyntahn is that in the back of the mind of your potential allies is one thought.

"What happens to me if the attempt fails to take down Clyntahn?"

In other words, which is safer? Going along with Clyntahn or taking part in a failed attempt to take Clyntahn down?

martin wrote:I do wonder what the temple guard would do if 3 of the group of 4 and the grand vicar all turned on Clyntahn. Especially after some notable defeat that was his fault (again!) or proof of his lying (again!).
But I don't think that's the way Mr Weber is going with this.

I'd love to see some sort of Emperor of Japan parallel with the Grand Vicar. The generals were running the war and more or less ignoring him, forgetting that he still had huge power in the eyes of the common folk. So, when the emperor surrendered, they realized that he was not so powerless after all and they were forced to follow.