(SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.

Curious.

If somehow the SLN hands the GA its head, what do you think the GA's course of action would be? (OMG, I'd hate it if the next book ends on that cliffhanger!)

Just keep on GA. Just keep right on pussyfooting around with the League instead of delivering that knockout punch while they're against the ropes. Didn't learn a damn thing from Janacek's mistake did ya? Hmmm?

cthia wrote:Curious.

If somehow the SLN hands the GA its head, what do you think the GA's course of action would be? (OMG, I'd hate it if the next book ends on that cliffhanger!)

Just keep on GA. Just keep right on pussyfooting around with the League instead of delivering that knockout punch while they're against the ropes. Didn't learn a damn thing from Janacek's mistake did ya? Hmmm?

Who's handing whose head to who? I'm never sure what the possessive aspects of grammar are in these instances. What's the rule? Seriously.

npadln wrote:

cthia wrote:Curious.

If somehow the SLN hands the GA its head, what do you think the GA's course of action would be? (OMG, I'd hate it if the next book ends on that cliffhanger!)

Just keep on GA. Just keep right on pussyfooting around with the League instead of delivering that knockout punch while they're against the ropes. Didn't learn a damn thing from Janacek's mistake did ya? Hmmm?

Who's handing whose head to who? I'm never sure what the possessive aspects of grammar are in these instances. What's the rule? Seriously.

Sorry npadln. I'm the wrong one to ask about grammatical rules. I only live in America. And I muck up grammar as much as grammar mucks up me.

I'll try and clear this one up...

"In case the SLN hands the GA its first defeat."

npadln wrote:

cthia wrote:Curious.

If somehow the SLN hands the GA its head, what do you think the GA's course of action would be? (OMG, I'd hate it if the next book ends on that cliffhanger!)

Just keep on GA. Just keep right on pussyfooting around with the League instead of delivering that knockout punch while they're against the ropes. Didn't learn a damn thing from Janacek's mistake did ya? Hmmm?

Who's handing whose head to who? I'm never sure what the possessive aspects of grammar are in these instances. What's the rule? Seriously.

Standard analysis: This is a somewhat complicated case, since "hands" has both an indirect object and a direct object: the recipient (the GA) and the thing that gets handed to the recipient (its head).

Since "its" is a genitive (possessive), the head in question belongs to the antecedent, which is the immediately preceding noun, in this case "GA".

The SLN is chopping off the GA's head and handing it (the head) to it (the GA).

I suspect the thing that tends to confuse people in the analysis is locating the antecedent.

Ok, we expect, because the author is reported as having mentioned that 10 million casualty figure, that Beowulf is going to take serious damage.

We are also guessing that as part of all of this that SL is going to attempt to force Beowulf to either not vote to leave the League or attempt to challange the vote to do so by regime change.

And then what happens? The Mandarins will spin it as usual and the rest of the League plus the actual independent systems or other multi-system political entities are going to have to make some tough decisions about what will happen next. Somehow the League losing another 100 plus capital ships in the process of "convincing" Beowulf to stay in the League isn't going to do a lot of positive things for the League. Loss of ships & crews aside, being publicly willing to attack Beowulf is going to make a lot of people really unhappy. Remember that about 25% of the League members voted AGAINST the resolution to investigate Beowulf.

Just exactly how is the SL going to accomplish it's possible attempt to invalidate the Beowulf plebiscite? Send a DB from Beowulf System to a SLN fleet waiting in hyper to react to the succession vote by storming the system while loudly proclaiming that the SL "observers" found massive voteing fraud? Parking an SLN fleet in (or just without) the system is going to look as bad as what Beowulf and Manticore are trying to avoid- the appearence of overt intimidation.

Have they even considered that - while Manticore was severely hurt by whomever trashed their orbital industry- that Haven has a whole lot of ships (of all classes) plus intact and in high gear production of military hardware which, while quite up to Matnty tech is a whole lot better than SLN stuff.
The vote is taken, the SLN force feels compelled to enter and secure the system against the " obvious" massive irregularites (from their point of view) that caused the outcome and the BSDF "reacts badly" to an SLN invasion of the system. It is highly unlikely that the BSDF is going to stand down because some SL functionary proclaims Beowulf must be rescued from the consequnces of leaving the League.

kzt wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:However, that is why I said that nailing one with a laser cluster is useless.

A CM converts the missile into a very fine cloud of dust. Which is still moving very fast.

Isn't it going to be a very rapidly expanding cloud of dust, though? As in most of it missing the planet?

Brigade XO wrote:Ok, we expect, because the author is reported as having mentioned that 10 million casualty figure, that Beowulf is going to take serious damage.

We are also guessing that as part of all of this that SL is going to attempt to force Beowulf to either not vote to leave the League or attempt to challange the vote to do so by regime change.

And then what happens? The Mandarins will spin it as usual and the rest of the League plus the actual independent systems or other multi-system political entities are going to have to make some tough decisions about what will happen next. Somehow the League losing another 100 plus capital ships in the process of "convincing" Beowulf to stay in the League isn't going to do a lot of positive things for the League. Loss of ships & crews aside, being publicly willing to attack Beowulf is going to make a lot of people really unhappy. Remember that about 25% of the League members voted AGAINST the resolution to investigate Beowulf.

Just exactly how is the SL going to accomplish it's possible attempt to invalidate the Beowulf plebiscite? Send a DB from Beowulf System to a SLN fleet waiting in hyper to react to the succession vote by storming the system while loudly proclaiming that the SL "observers" found massive voteing fraud? Parking an SLN fleet in (or just without) the system is going to look as bad as what Beowulf and Manticore are trying to avoid- the appearence of overt intimidation.

Have they even considered that - while Manticore was severely hurt by whomever trashed their orbital industry- that Haven has a whole lot of ships (of all classes) plus intact and in high gear production of military hardware which, while quite up to Matnty tech is a whole lot better than SLN stuff.
The vote is taken, the SLN force feels compelled to enter and secure the system against the " obvious" massive irregularites (from their point of view) that caused the outcome and the BSDF "reacts badly" to an SLN invasion of the system. It is highly unlikely that the BSDF is going to stand down because some SL functionary proclaims Beowulf must be rescued from the consequnces of leaving the League.

Treason!

This should be the League's defense against stopping the vote and/or the secession. Member states cannot actively secede in time of war - formal or de facto! Beowulf actively colluded with an enemy under League radar during a de facto state of war! Actively hindered a tactical operation against League enemies and did so by working in tandem with said League enemies and allowed same enemies to deploy military hardware within League space! Beowulf should have remained neutral across the board -- in which case, neutrality can be argued to be transgressive as well. But they didn't remain neutral.

I don't like the way everyone is dismissing out of hand the serious charge of treason against Beowulf -- which directly resulted in the loss of an entire SLN fleet, several task forces and a horrendous loss of life.

Also, if it is now obvious to the League that OpSec was compromised because the RMN KNEW all of the particulars of Raging Justice then they are just as aware that their own member state, Beowulf, was privy to the same -- and that they were walking into an ambush -- but withheld that vital information with extreme prejudice!

No one else sees how serious a breech against one's polity that is?

Well, project the same transgression on, say, Hawaii. During a US de facto state of war with the Japanese during WWII, what would have been the reaction of the US against Hawaii if they had been kicking around seceding then decided to do so (with their treasonous actions) during about the time prior and leading up to Pearl Harbor and later the US found out that they allowed Japanese radar and communications on the island and subs to roam its waters?

Sobering 'eh? We may not like the SL, but we cannot offhandedly dismiss the grounds which support their legal legs.

I'm sure the League is thinking that legally, until or unless Beowulf has been freed, the SLN's presence in League space is none of the GA's hotdamn business!
.

Brigade XO wrote:Ok, we expect, because the author is reported as having mentioned that 10 million casualty figure, that Beowulf is going to take serious damage.

We are also guessing that as part of all of this that SL is going to attempt to force Beowulf to either not vote to leave the League or attempt to challange the vote to do so by regime change.

And then what happens? The Mandarins will spin it as usual and the rest of the League plus the actual independent systems or other multi-system political entities are going to have to make some tough decisions about what will happen next. Somehow the League losing another 100 plus capital ships in the process of "convincing" Beowulf to stay in the League isn't going to do a lot of positive things for the League. Loss of ships & crews aside, being publicly willing to attack Beowulf is going to make a lot of people really unhappy. Remember that about 25% of the League members voted AGAINST the resolution to investigate Beowulf.

Just exactly how is the SL going to accomplish it's possible attempt to invalidate the Beowulf plebiscite? Send a DB from Beowulf System to a SLN fleet waiting in hyper to react to the succession vote by storming the system while loudly proclaiming that the SL "observers" found massive voteing fraud? Parking an SLN fleet in (or just without) the system is going to look as bad as what Beowulf and Manticore are trying to avoid- the appearence of overt intimidation.

Have they even considered that - while Manticore was severely hurt by whomever trashed their orbital industry- that Haven has a whole lot of ships (of all classes) plus intact and in high gear production of military hardware which, while quite up to Matnty tech is a whole lot better than SLN stuff.
The vote is taken, the SLN force feels compelled to enter and secure the system against the " obvious" massive irregularites (from their point of view) that caused the outcome and the BSDF "reacts badly" to an SLN invasion of the system. It is highly unlikely that the BSDF is going to stand down because some SL functionary proclaims Beowulf must be rescued from the consequnces of leaving the League.

Do not recall which chat room the involvement from Republic of Haven has been discussed and while we agree the tech is not up to Manticore's... quantity creates its' own quality. It also seems likely that Apollo can be added to Moriarty with surprising effect to the SLN.

In addition, your comment that the GA wants to avoid the appearance of overt pressure does not prevent Haven from sending some of its' fleet on a training mission.

cthia wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Ok, we expect, because the author is reported as having mentioned that 10 million casualty figure, that Beowulf is going to take serious damage.

We are also guessing that as part of all of this that SL is going to attempt to force Beowulf to either not vote to leave the League or attempt to challange the vote to do so by regime change.

And then what happens? The Mandarins will spin it as usual and the rest of the League plus the actual independent systems or other multi-system political entities are going to have to make some tough decisions about what will happen next. Somehow the League losing another 100 plus capital ships in the process of "convincing" Beowulf to stay in the League isn't going to do a lot of positive things for the League. Loss of ships & crews aside, being publicly willing to attack Beowulf is going to make a lot of people really unhappy. Remember that about 25% of the League members voted AGAINST the resolution to investigate Beowulf.

Just exactly how is the SL going to accomplish it's possible attempt to invalidate the Beowulf plebiscite? Send a DB from Beowulf System to a SLN fleet waiting in hyper to react to the succession vote by storming the system while loudly proclaiming that the SL "observers" found massive voteing fraud? Parking an SLN fleet in (or just without) the system is going to look as bad as what Beowulf and Manticore are trying to avoid- the appearence of overt intimidation.

Have they even considered that - while Manticore was severely hurt by whomever trashed their orbital industry- that Haven has a whole lot of ships (of all classes) plus intact and in high gear production of military hardware which, while quite up to Matnty tech is a whole lot better than SLN stuff.
The vote is taken, the SLN force feels compelled to enter and secure the system against the " obvious" massive irregularites (from their point of view) that caused the outcome and the BSDF "reacts badly" to an SLN invasion of the system. It is highly unlikely that the BSDF is going to stand down because some SL functionary proclaims Beowulf must be rescued from the consequnces of leaving the League.

Treason!

This should be the League's defense against stopping the vote and/or the secession. Member states cannot actively secede in time of war - formal or de facto! Beowulf actively colluded with an enemy under League radar during a de facto state of war! Actively hindered a tactical operation against League enemies and did so by working in tandem with said League enemies and allowed same enemies to deploy military hardware within League space! Beowulf should have remained neutral across the board -- in which case, neutrality can be argued to be transgressive as well. But they didn't remain neutral.

I don't like the way everyone is dismissing out of hand the serious charge of treason against Beowulf -- which directly resulted in the loss of an entire SLN fleet, several task forces and a horrendous loss of life.

Also, if it is now obvious to the League that OpSec was compromised because the RMN KNEW all of the particulars of Raging Justice then they are just as aware that their own member state, Beowulf, was privy to the same -- and that they were walking into an ambush -- but withheld that vital information with extreme prejudice!

No one else sees how serious a breech against one's polity that is?

Well, project the same transgression on, say, Hawaii. During a US de facto state of war with the Japanese during WWII, what would have been the reaction of the US against Hawaii if they had been kicking around seceding then decided to do so (with their treasonous actions) during about the time prior and leading up to Pearl Harbor and later the US found out that they allowed Japanese radar and communications on the island and subs to roam its waters?

Sobering 'eh? We may not like the SL, but we cannot offhandedly dismiss the grounds which support their legal legs.

I'm sure the League is thinking that legally, until or unless Beowulf has been freed, the SLN's presence in League space is none of the GA's hotdamn business!
.

5 major differences there:
1) Hawaii was a territory in 1940, and as such, wholly owned property of the US government and unable to secede
2) US states do not have the constitutional right to secede
3) US states and territories are unable to enter into foreign agreements without approval of the Federal Government
4) SL systems do have the constitutional right to secede
5) SL systems and territories are allowed to enter into foreign agreements without approval of the SL Government

I don't like the way everyone is dismissing out of hand the serious charge of treason against Beowulf -- which directly resulted in the loss of an entire SLN fleet, several task forces and a horrendous loss of life.

We're ignoring it because it's a terribly stupid charge to try to hang Beowulf on.

What task forces? Bewoulf literally had zero role in what happened to Byng and Crandall, which happened hundreds of light years away. And no shots were fired at Tsang's task force. No loss of life can remotely be hung on Beowulf in any of those cases.

As for Filareta, one must make the distinction between what we the readers know, and what the denizens of the Honorverse know. We know that Beowulf leaked to Manticore and Haven first, but no one else knows that. As far as the Solarians are concerned, that event never happened. What did happen was Operation Raging Justice had leaked to the Solarian newsies (and consequently, the galaxy at large) long before Eleventh Fleet ever reached Manticore. So, again, they're not responsible.

The sole point that they are trying to prosecute is the confrontation with Admiral Tsang at Beowulf. That incident resulted in zero loss of life. It's also one in which Bewoulf has the strongest legal standing, as they clearly cited which articles under the League constitution they were following. Consequently, they can't be charged with treason if they're doing exactly what the law allows them to do. And since the there has been no officially declared state of war, or even declared sanctions, Bewoulf is free to trade with whomever they want. Likewise, since Manticore has shared sovereignty over the terminus, Manticore is free to post whatever ships they want there, and the right to fire on any ship threatening it.

I urge you to reread the infodumps posted earlier, as well as rereading the text. Beowulf acted fully within its rights. The Mandarins are going to bend the law like a pretzel to make it illegal, but that in no way changes the original letter and intent of the law, nor will sizable swathes of the League to buy it for a second. That's going to lead to the breakup you seem incapable of accepting.