(SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.

Loren Pechtel wrote:However, that is why I said that nailing one with a laser cluster is useless.

A CM converts the missile into a very fine cloud of dust. Which is still moving very fast.

SharkHunter wrote:Part of my new thoughts as we wait for the RFC/MWW battle at Beowulf is that -- to render the SLN ineffective doesn't require the GA to smash the invading force to bits. That wasn't even what they were after in Filerata's Folly which would have worked -- except that the command structure got blown to bits by a bomb placed on flag bridge just for that reason.

So here's an interesting thought that requires neither the pre-deployment of Apollo, etc. [though I still think there will be a plenipotentiary ready to sign over GA ships to Beowulf once the SLN positions to attack]: What if Manticore helped upgrade the Beowulfan SD's CM capability to Alliance levels and shipped in a liberal supply of Katanas? Something like what Giscard experienced at Solon -- even with more missiles than the SLN can likely control, they failed to capture or destroy Eighth Fleet, even though they had every force advantage available. The SLN does not have the weight of missile fire available, nor the quality of leadership: simply keeping the BSDF from getting fragged may be enough -- while the GA is invited around the periphery to block the SLN's withdrawal and force a surrender.

Thoughts?

Beowulf is likely to be the next battle space... Do you think that the alliance have enough tools to make the replacement systems and get them in place quickly enough?

I have to re read the last book and maybe the one prior (or parallel) but as I recall, the SLN also ran itself dry of available ships. Everything else is either in mothballs or frontier fleet but Detwelier will push all buttons and pull all strings to try to hit Manticore and its' ally's before they can recoup.

I have been rong before

Loren Pechtel wrote:Another thought here: What exactly does "no combat forces" mean?

If I were the GA I would dump a bunch of Apollo pods in the system. Pods are quite stealthy, nobody needs to know they are there so they won't have any influence on the vote.

If the Sollies come calling the pods can be fired by the ships barreling in from the terminus. They won't work all that well but they don't need to--with some Ghost Rider drones (again, stealthy, what the voters don't know about won't change the vote) to provide basic targeting they should still devastate Sollie ships.

This provides no point defense, though--while the Sollies would be devastated it would be up to the locals to stop anything heading for the planet if they deliberately or accidentally committed an Eridani violation.

One thing I don't think people remember is that Beowulf is going to be the missile supplier for a while. They're bringing their ability to manufacture the whole range of Manticoran missiles, pods and so forth on-line. Although it hasn't been stated, I suspect that this includes recon drones and Hermes bouys. They're also the vendor for Mycroft, which means they're building Keyhole II platforms.

Something I seem to remember, although I don't have the textev, is that Beowulf has had the plans for all this for a while, but hasn't brought them online because they didn't want the ISLN to find out about it. That undoubtedly means that the last few years of their warship production is probably capable of using at least the Mark 16G right off the assembly line.

If you've got Keyhole II platforms, you've got what you need to talk to the Apollo control missiles; you don't need to retrofit that onto your warships.

So Manticore doesn't have to supply Beowulf with missiles. They can take them right off their own assembly lines. IIRC, they started the lines pretty soon after Herlander Simoes started telling people about the MAlign.

Sweet, magic widget machines making advanced tech never been done before in Beowulfan space perfect the first time.

Producing hundreds of thousands of missiles able to deal with half of the SLN when they come knocking, in all of 3 months from a starting position of 0...

Major logistics embarrassment moment there...

1 month to gab, get plans, set up(miracle in itself), might want to read up on how long it took Britain and the USA to "share" technical information in WWII... Let alone the financial side of things... They had YEARS of preparation time. YEARS!

2 months ~~ 1500 hours...
Several hundred thousand needed
# of miracle widgets machines is??? 1000 sitting doing nothing naturally.
If 150,000 missiles using 1000 machines, means each missile requires being built in 10 hours each perfectly the first time without testing or failures or..l murphy...
Each SD SLN ~~150missiles/kill = 1000 destroyed SD's.

Wait....

Why does it take years to build a capital ship...

Just need a ship widget miracle machine and one pops out in a few hours... If you can do it for an extremely high tech compact systems integrated 100-->200 ton missile why not for a very simple ship?

Just to further annoy a certain dead horse, I believe I know a certain current League member that just happens to have a sizable SDF and is familure with SLN SDs. since they have a few dozen of things that are (or are to the best of the SLN) comparable. Not that they would want them with crew aboard and certainly not more than minimal requirements to keep them sitting about in a "warm" condition. SLN misses in the tubes, SDs of dubious combat value between a certain wormhole owning planet and the SL sending a fleet of the same type of ships to intimidate or take over the system? So you have a bunch of fairly tough missile sponges that can actualy stand (for a while) against similar SLN ships (if you don't count a full load-out of Cataphracts on the incoming fleet- don't know if the SLN got resupplied- and those SD HAVE to be honored as a credable threat, at least at normal SLN SD ranges.

If nothing else, it would force an attacking SLN fleet to deal with them. Can you set a SLN SD to Ramming Speed?

Relax wrote:Sweet, magic widget machines making advanced tech never been done before in Beowulfan space perfect the first time.

Producing hundreds of thousands of missiles able to deal with half of the SLN when they come knocking, in all of 3 months from a starting position of 0...

Major logistics embarrassment moment there...

1 month to gab, get plans, set up(miracle in itself), might want to read up on how long it took Britain and the USA to "share" technical information in WWII... Let alone the financial side of things... They had YEARS of preparation time. YEARS!

2 months ~~ 1500 hours...
Several hundred thousand needed
# of miracle widgets machines is??? 1000 sitting doing nothing naturally.
If 150,000 missiles using 1000 machines, means each missile requires being built in 10 hours each perfectly the first time without testing or failures or..l murphy...
Each SD SLN ~~150missiles/kill = 1000 destroyed SD's.

Wait....

Why does it take years to build a capital ship...

Just need a ship widget miracle machine and one pops out in a few hours... If you can do it for an extremely high tech compact systems integrated 100-->200 ton missile why not for a very simple ship?

Relax, May I have three fingers of what ever you're drinking? While I read your post, I was made to recall the old adage that there is nothing like the prospect of being hanged to sharpen ones focus (obvious paraphrase) My point is that there should not be a waste of a month if... the plans are in hand and knowing what SLN did in recent weeks.

Oh sure, there is some start up complication that must be overcome but the motivation is off the chart

also as you mentioned earlier and is definitely in the text, though i can't find at the mo, there was line about how manticore had shared most of its new tech with beowulf

The tech had not been put into production for fear of some (unlikely but big universe so anything can happen) competent SLN intel analyst realising that beowulf's ships now had a huge advantage over the official navy.

don't think that is technically against the league charter but it would certainly raise eyebrows, something they did not want at that time.

so the comments about how long to get the info across and believed/understood are irrelevant. how long to get into production IS a more better question

Perhaps the Solarian League will send an appropriate ship of telling registry just to make a point... SLN Grendel.

The short synopsis of the story of Beowulf

The warrior Beowulf must fight and defeat the monster Grendel who is terrorizing Denmark, and later, Grendel's mother, who begins killing out of revenge.

Whose largest and most populated city of the same name (Grendel) on Beowulf suffers a massive hit.

The Battle of Beowulf has a distinct ring to it doesn't it?

It is alliteration that brings to mind the Battle of the Bulge.

C. O. Thompson wrote:

Relax wrote:Sweet, magic widget machines making advanced tech never been done before in Beowulfan space perfect the first time.

Producing hundreds of thousands of missiles able to deal with half of the SLN when they come knocking, in all of 3 months from a starting position of 0...

Major logistics embarrassment moment there...

1 month to gab, get plans, set up(miracle in itself), might want to read up on how long it took Britain and the USA to "share" technical information in WWII... Let alone the financial side of things... They had YEARS of preparation time. YEARS!

2 months ~~ 1500 hours...
Several hundred thousand needed
# of miracle widgets machines is??? 1000 sitting doing nothing naturally.
If 150,000 missiles using 1000 machines, means each missile requires being built in 10 hours each perfectly the first time without testing or failures or..l murphy...
Each SD SLN ~~150missiles/kill = 1000 destroyed SD's.

Wait....

Why does it take years to build a capital ship...

Just need a ship widget miracle machine and one pops out in a few hours... If you can do it for an extremely high tech compact systems integrated 100-->200 ton missile why not for a very simple ship?

Relax, May I have three fingers of what ever you're drinking? While I read your post, I was made to recall the old adage that there is nothing like the prospect of being hanged to sharpen ones focus (obvious paraphrase) My point is that there should not be a waste of a month if... the plans are in hand and knowing what SLN did in recent weeks.

Oh sure, there is some start up complication that must be overcome but the motivation is off the chart

What am I drinking? Knowledge.
You can spout adages all you want.
Does not negate engineering manufacturing reality.