Is Vicar Trynair really become a nonentity?

I know that this has been batted about several times but as I am rereading the series I am finding it hard to reconcile how STRONG he was to how apparently weak he is now. In OAR he is the one who gives Archbishop Dynnys his marching orders about Charis. In BSRA it is made clear that he is the kingmaker of the Council and the puppet master of the Grand Vicar. In BHD he is the one who 'beards' Vicar Clyntahn over the Ferayd Massacre and forces him to do humiliating public penance!

Yet in HFQ he is shown as a placeholder in the Gang of Four, someone who merely attends and has no apparent duties other than being the despised Chancellor that no one likes or respects. A man who has climbed to the top rung in the CoGA only to become this shadow? I know the stated reasons, but that the power survivor of that climb not being able to adapt just doesn't seem right!

Anybody else find this anomalous? Could this be a trap set by MWW?

Charybdis wrote:I know that this has been batted about several times but as I am rereading the series I am finding it hard to reconcile how STRONG he was to how apparently weak he is now. In OAR he is the one who gives Archbishop Dynnys his marching orders about Charis. In BSRA it is made clear that he is the kingmaker of the Council and the puppet master of the Grand Vicar. In BHD he is the one who 'beards' Vicar Clyntahn over the Ferayd Massacre and forces him to do humiliating public penance!

Yet in HFQ he is shown as a placeholder in the Gang of Four, someone who merely attends and has no apparent duties other than being the despised Chancellor that no one likes or respects. A man who has climbed to the top rung in the CoGA only to become this shadow? I know the stated reasons, but that the power survivor of that climb not being able to adapt just doesn't seem right!

Anybody else find this anomalous? Could this be a trap set by MWW?

There really hasn't been much need for diplomacy when the Church transitioned from "persuading kingdoms to do what they want" to "ordering kingdoms to do what they want".

In the current political climate, there's just not a whole lot for Trynair to DO except play referee and peacemaker in the Go4's internal dynamics.

evilauthor wrote:

Charybdis wrote:I know that this has been batted about several times but as I am rereading the series I am finding it hard to reconcile how STRONG he was to how apparently weak he is now. In OAR he is the one who gives Archbishop Dynnys his marching orders about Charis. In BSRA it is made clear that he is the kingmaker of the Council and the puppet master of the Grand Vicar. In BHD he is the one who 'beards' Vicar Clyntahn over the Ferayd Massacre and forces him to do humiliating public penance!

Yet in HFQ he is shown as a placeholder in the Gang of Four, someone who merely attends and has no apparent duties other than being the despised Chancellor that no one likes or respects. A man who has climbed to the top rung in the CoGA only to become this shadow? I know the stated reasons, but that the power survivor of that climb not being able to adapt just doesn't seem right!

Anybody else find this anomalous? Could this be a trap set by MWW?

There really hasn't been much need for diplomacy when the Church transitioned from "persuading kingdoms to do what they want" to "ordering kingdoms to do what they want".

In the current political climate, there's just not a whole lot for Trynair to DO except play referee and peacemaker in the Go4's internal dynamics.

And the other three have gained relative stature and work out their own mutual understandings. Making the Church's finances work and repairing (a little) the image damage Clyntahn does makes Duchairn irreplaceable. The jihad itself and his competent leadership of it - and the confidence in him Church and secular officers have - do the same for Magwair. The two of them are working hand in glove together and will work out how to work with the Grand Fornicator on their own. Trynair isn't needed to mediate between those blocs, and the harshness of Church politics now make that a role he really, really does not want.

It's not Trynair's Church anymore. He got where he was maneuvering in a peaceful, corrupt organization. Clyntahn's turned that church into a killing machine, inside and out. The Vicarate is run by fear and blackmail after the Circle purge; it's dominated by Clyntahn's tools.

If there's any role for persuasion left with secular states, or anything for the Grand Vicar to say, that's Trynair's turf, but as evilauthor notes, persuasion isn't holding the reins these days and there's nothing left for the Grand Vicar to say.

All true. It would be reasonable though if he has some tricks up his sleeve.

Expert snuggler wrote:All true. It would be reasonable though if he has some tricks up his sleeve.

He may. But a lot of the tricks he used to have are no longer playable with the game changed, and assuming his state of general chronic fear is genuine, whatever tricks he's developing are likely about saving his own hide.

He's the minder for the Grand Vicar, who can speak infallibly.

Expert snuggler wrote:He's the minder for the Grand Vicar, who can speak infallibly.

Who can speak infallibly, as long as no members of Clyntahn's Inquisition are present.

Yep, and the Grand Vicar likely knows that he's a dead man if he challenges Clyntahn.

Henry Brown wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:He's the minder for the Grand Vicar, who can speak infallibly.

Who can speak infallibly, as long as no members of Clyntahn's Inquisition are present.

RFC had noted that it was Trynair who established the Group of Four and who arranged the election of the current, weak Grand Vicar as a defensive measure. He could have been Grand Vicar had he chosen but that would have painted a giant bull's eye on his back (as had happened to at least one of Wylsyn's ancestors). He also mentioned that Trynair had expected and prepared for Samyl Wylsyn to win the race for Grand Inquisitor, making Clyntahn's election quite a shocker. He'd then sought out Magwair (and his control of the Temple Guard) as a counterbalance to the Inquisition's power intending to create a Group of Three, only to discover how thin a reed he was. So he was forced to add Duchairn thus finding the right balance of power - at least in peacetime. In wartime though, Magwair became far more powerful as he found his own element while Duchairn became critical for the Church's financial survival. And that very war, declared in AMF and beginning on land in HFAF, makes any diplomacy superfluous.

In other words, Trynair has weakened steadily while others became stronger at his expense. And it makes sense - in time of peace, you need a lot of capable diplomacy and do not need lots of troops and weapons (and weapons development). In time of war, the situation is reversed. And that means that the true poles of power have always been Duchairn (whose treasury was needed in both peacetime and wartime) and Clyntahn (whose Inquisition was needed to maintain loyalty to the Church). Yet ultimately, the Inquisition was supposed to suppress the emergence of new technology - that was in fact the Church's true mission in the eyes of Langhorne and his cohorts. Yet now it's forced to approve any and every innovation Duchairn's and Magwair's people come up with as a war measure, diminishing it's moral authority as a result.

This is still a good thread and a relevant question. I think RFC intends Clyntahn's demise soon. If some pundits are correct, by the end of the next book. So it has to come about somehow. There are the many possible ways as per the thread about who will kill him.

The King Harald 7 ships will be available.
Maybe Rainbow Waters will turn against the Inquisition as some suggest.
Helmcleaver grows in power and ability (courtesy of OWL)
And of course Magwair and Duchairn may play a part, as they see the world turning away from Jihad.