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(SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.

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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:43 pm

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Duckk wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:As in Churchill not ordering the evacuation of Coventry in WWII, he didn't want the Nazis to know the enigma codes had been broken.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_ ... _and_Ultra

This is a bit sobering to me. I had to take a moment. As I've mentioned before, my wife's family on both sides hail from Coventry, Bristol and Brighton. Her parents, on both sides, lost too many due to that raid. Some of them view it quite differently, but of course.

There couldn't have been a better example placed on exhibit.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by pnakasone   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:51 pm

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We have to understand that leaders will have to make decisions that will cost lives. They have to keep their eye on the larger goal.

The Beowulf leadership understands from the pure safety stand point that GA should have a strong presence in the Beowulf system. But would it be the smartest thing to do given the larger PR war going on with the Mandarins. They are trying to set up further cracks in the League that they can stick and hammer wedges into. The ultimate goal is to cause the League to break up.

So do they save millions lives now by protecting Beowulf directly but at the potential cost of far more lives later? Considering that if the Mandarins can find a way to hold things together the League has the potential to pound the GA back to stone age. The GA is trying to avoid giving the Mandarins something they can use as a rallying cry to achieve that.
Last edited by pnakasone on Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Vince   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:09 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:As in Churchill not ordering the evacuation of Coventry in WWII, he didn't want the Nazis to know the enigma codes had been broken.
cthia wrote:This is a bit sobering to me. I had to take a moment. As I've mentioned before, my wife's family on both sides hail from Coventry, Bristol and Brighton. Her parents, on both sides, lost too many due to that raid. Some of them view it quite differently, but of course.

There couldn't have been a better example placed on exhibit.

Unfortunately the example is not accurate (trending more toward urban legend or conspiracy theory). Coventry wasn't sacrificed to save Ultra. Ultra Goes to War by Ronald Lewin explains why:

On one notorious night of the winter Blitz, however, neither Ultra nor the scientists had been able to save a single life.

Link goes to Google Books. Title: Ultra Goes to War by Ronald Lewin. Copyright 1978, ISBN 0-671-44531-6.

Pages 99 to 103 of the copy scanned by Google Books, starting from the sentence given in the link through to this sentence: 'As we grew closer to our target the light gradually became larger until it suddenly dawned on us: we were looking at the burning city of Coventry.'
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Duckk   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:35 pm

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Exactly. That's why I posted the Wikipedia link.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:51 pm

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pnakasone wrote:We have to understand that leaders will have to make decisions that will cost lives. They have to keep their eye on the larger goal.

The Beowulf leadership understands from the pure safety stand point that GA should have a strong presence in the Beowulf system. But would it be the smartest thing to do given the larger PR war going on with the Mandarins. They are trying to set up further cracks in the League that they can stick and hammer wedges into. The ultimate goal is to cause the League to break up.

So do they save millions lives now by protecting Beowulf directly but at the potential cost of far more lives later? Considering that if the Mandarins can find a way to hold things together the League has the potential to pound the GA back to stone age. The GA is trying to avoid giving the Mandarins something they can use as a rallying cry to achieve that.

Absolutely. It is coined "Making the big call." Which is why you want to be careful in burning -- or wasting -- your one vote. It is why I personally will be shockingly surprised if a US presidential candidate who claims to have no belief in God will ever be elected.

No religious arguments please. Candidates are certainly aware of that fact themselves -- to keep any non-beliefs secret. The overall consensus is that one wants one's leaders who have to make the big calls, to make the big calls -- tempered in morals, scruples and values. It isn't that the majority of Christians think that morals, scruples and values are bereft of non-Christians but that they feel there is a high possibility that it will surely be found in professed Christians. Certainly wouldn't want a Hitler making the call.

In Beowulf's case, has a high threat level of impending attack been issued planet wide? Is every citizen given opportunity to choose to remain on planet?

Or, are just certain people made privy to it? There is a good chance that Honor -- certainly Honor's parents -- have family and friends on Beowulf. Have they been informed at the exclusion of others?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:18 pm

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Fox2! wrote:We don't know (yet) whose starships jumped into the Mesa system at the end of Cauldron of Ghosts. Is it Mike? Or Chien Liu? Or even the Protector's Own? (Less likely). It's not the MSN, nor even the RF fleet, or the MPF wouldn't be offering a cease-fire in place with discussion of plans to withdraw. The Detweilers have abandoned Mesa like so much garbage.

It may even be Galactica and the Colonial Fleet.

Until we find out who the new player in town is, all that we know is that they are not friendly to the corporate powers that be.


What is this about not knowing whose ships they were? We have a fleet that already decided to head for Mesa. Why in the world should we think the force that showed up was anything but that fleet???
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:22 pm

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Gun Boat Diplomacy wrote:I think that the SLN will be in or near orbit of Beowulf when the GA gets within combat range. After calling for the SLN Fleets surrender, the nano weapon will activate in one of the SLN Flag Staff Officers causing him/her to launch 1 or more Kews against the planets surface


It wouldn't even need the fleet to be around Beowulf. With the intercept scenarios that have been discussed on here the same thing would work. There's a Mesan sleeper on there that fires on the planet when the fleet gets jumped. Note that all the intercept scenarios presented bring the fleet under fire, they do not put ships between the fleet and Beowulf. The missiles are ballistic when they reach the planet--no wedges to point them out, they'll be harder to find. Also, laser clusters will be ineffective--the threat is impact, not the warhead. Rendering a missile combat ineffective with a laser hit won't stop it from hitting the planet. If the Beowulf CMs don't get a 100% kill the planet eats the missile.


Thinking about it, if the MAlign missiles Beowulf it provides a golden opportunity for the GA to stop the Sollies.

Send a fleet to Earth, punch out anything military and then demand access to the news systems of the planet.

"A Solarian fleet committed a clear and deliberate Eridani Edict violation at Beowulf. By the Edict the appropriate response is the destruction of this planet. However, we realize you are being manipulated by the Mesan Alignment and so we are not going to act at this time. Fix your government at once to ensure there are no more such incidents!"
Last edited by Loren Pechtel on Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by JohnRoth   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:36 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Fox2! wrote:We don't know (yet) whose starships jumped into the Mesa system at the end of Cauldron of Ghosts. Is it Mike? Or Chien Liu? Or even the Protector's Own? (Less likely). It's not the MSN, nor even the RF fleet, or the MPF wouldn't be offering a cease-fire in place with discussion of plans to withdraw. The Detweilers have abandoned Mesa like so much garbage.

It may even be Galactica and the Colonial Fleet.

Until we find out who the new player in town is, all that we know is that they are not friendly to the corporate powers that be.


What is this about not knowing whose ships they were? We have a fleet that already decided to head for Mesa. Why in the world should we think the force that showed up was anything but that fleet???


Just trying to cover all the possibilities.

It would be amusing to find the IAN, with Herzog von Rabinstrage, in possession when Admiral Henke shows up the next day, but I seriously doubt that's what's going to happen.

We do know that's why the Anderman Empire decided not to join the Grand Alliance; they've got a serious bone to pick with the MAlign over the assassination attempt on the Heir.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Relax   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:43 pm

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Isn't this subject a bit of a duh... moment?

DW has stated 2 more books in series. So, that means 2 more large battles. One would presume, Beowulf and dissolution of the SL in the next book with battle at Darius or Malign in the last book.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by kzt   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:44 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote: If the Beowulf CMs don't get a 100% kill the planet eats the missile.

A 200 ton dust cloud hitting the atmosphere at .6C will still ruin your entire weekend.
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