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(SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.

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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:16 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:I can't see the GA being defeated at Beowulf even with the high number of fatalities predicted, once the GA ships get to within Apollo range of the SLN it will be the SLN that suffers yet another defeat.

I think most of the Beowulf fatalities will probably occur on the planet not in orbit, so with the BSDF and the GA ships after them the SLN doesn't have a chance of getting away.

If it is not the SLN that commits the planetary damage their only hope of surviving would be to strike wedge and welcome the boarding parties to investigate their computer logs. If they don't do that then they will surely be pursued and eliminated in another way.



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I can't see the GA being defeated at Beowulf even with the high number of fatalities predicted, once the GA ships get to within Apollo range of the SLN it will be the SLN that suffers yet another defeat.

Unless the MAlign shows up in some capacity to offset the impending checkmate and alter the playing field -- which could provide a convenient entrance in storyline to gain info regarding the MAlign's whereabouts via a captured ship, etc. -- The devil's advocate is a cousin of the demon Murphy. (Sometimes I play Devil's advocate but I assure you that we're NOT related.) lol

One other thing I'd like to interject, actually reiterate from one of my previous posts. Regarding the 10M lost, we don't know if it is because of GA or Beowulfan incompetence or whether it is a result of exemplary performance on part of the GA in limiting the number of dead from imminently exceeding far beyond that number.

Regardless of whether the SLN will be directly responsible for the lives lost by instigating a battle, they will be indirectly responsible even if MAlign hands are on the trigger because of SLN arrogance and failure to heed the GA's warning already.

Ignorance is blameless, but arrogant stupidity is criminal.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Erls   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:23 pm

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With all the talk of the GA needing to be in position (whether stealth or otherwise) to prevent the ~10m Beowulf deaths that we know are coming people are forgetting a couple somewhat major points:

1- We know roughly 10m people will die. We know nothing else.
2- The GA could have their entire grand fleet in orbit around Beowulf, and 10m people could still die due to a bio attack from the MAlign.
3- The GA could have their entire grand fleet in orbit around Beowulf, and 10m people could die from a spider ship launching an attack missile from 3 light hours away that serves as a kinetic projectile that is undetectable and smashes into the planet.
4- There could be actual acts of terrorism on Beowulf. We know from the text that the MAlign has the Ballroom infiltrated... What if a couple of those members were to detonate a couple nukes on Beowulf?

My point it, we have zero evidence that the deaths of the 10m people will be because the GA did not have units in Beowulf space in time to prevent it. To fixate otherwise is closing the mind to every other possibility that could happen even with the desired (by some) GA ships in actual Beowulf orbit.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by pnakasone   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:25 pm

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cthia wrote:Simply the thought of it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth -- akin to the conspiracy theories (true or no) of the US government 'using' the tragedies of 911 (among other appalling things) to further its political goals.


Such a tactic should always leave a very bad taste in the mouth. But sometimes it may be a necessary choice to achieve a larger goal.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:37 pm

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Erls wrote:With all the talk of the GA needing to be in position (whether stealth or otherwise) to prevent the ~10m Beowulf deaths that we know are coming people are forgetting a couple somewhat major points:

1- We know roughly 10m people will die. We know nothing else.
2- The GA could have their entire grand fleet in orbit around Beowulf, and 10m people could still die due to a bio attack from the MAlign.
3- The GA could have their entire grand fleet in orbit around Beowulf, and 10m people could die from a spider ship launching an attack missile from 3 light hours away that serves as a kinetic projectile that is undetectable and smashes into the planet.
4- There could be actual acts of terrorism on Beowulf. We know from the text that the MAlign has the Ballroom infiltrated... What if a couple of those members were to detonate a couple nukes on Beowulf?

My point it, we have zero evidence that the deaths of the 10m people will be because the GA did not have units in Beowulf space in time to prevent it. To fixate otherwise is closing the mind to every other possibility that could happen even with the desired (by some) GA ships in actual Beowulf orbit.

Couldn't have been stated better -- with a very tiny nit that Duckk's posting of RFC's relevent infodump nixes any thoughts of inadequate protection or tactical positioning.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:05 pm

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pnakasone wrote:
cthia wrote:Simply the thought of it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth -- akin to the conspiracy theories (true or no) of the US government 'using' the tragedies of 911 (among other appalling things) to further its political goals.


Such a tactic should always leave a very bad taste in the mouth. But sometimes it may be a necessary choice to achieve a larger goal.


****** *

Such a tactic should always leave a very bad taste in the mouth.

Indeed.

But sometimes it may be a necessary choice to achieve a larger goal.

Within reason. One of the conspiracy theories, with supporting scientific analysis and ear witness, is that entities within the US government detonated explosives to actually bring down the WTC towers. If true, it's an unconscionable act of murder.


However, I'll accept it with caveat => if you'll accept that it's a very dangerous and questionable position if one unerringly assumes the absolute value of a moral stance that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few -- or the one."

Which begs to question why no one seems to be willing to touch viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7599 with a 10 ft. pole.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by kzt   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:35 pm

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cthia wrote:Within reason. One of the conspiracy theories, with supporting scientific analysis and ear witness, is that entities within the US government detonated explosives to actually bring down the WTC towers. If true, it's an unconscionable act of murder.

Don't be an idiot. You think people would not have noticed someone ripping the walls and fire protection material away from the structural supports and stringing detcord though their offices? Do you have any idea how long it takes to set up a building implosion and how few experts their really are? And not a single person ever noticed this. including the building maintenance people who walk through the building every single day?
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:48 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:Within reason. One of the conspiracy theories, with supporting scientific analysis and ear witness, is that entities within the US government detonated explosives to actually bring down the WTC towers. If true, it's an unconscionable act of murder.

Don't be an idiot. You think people would not have noticed someone ripping the walls and fire protection material away from the structural supports and stringing detcord though their offices? Do you have any idea how long it takes to set up a building implosion and how few experts their really are? And not a single person ever noticed this. including the building maintenance people who walk through the building every single day?

Proof positive that having the job of messenger is a very dangerous occupation. lol

It isn't my theory. Nor do I support or deny. I'll try and find the full documentary. It mentions a theory of advanced knowledge of the attacks and the use of high tech military explosives.

My hands are clean. I'm just the messenger. Frankly, I take it with a grain of salt, because I don't want it to be true. But I'm a Civil Engineer and certain Civil Engineers explain and share the theory.

Edit:
I think this is the one. I came in on it late on the tube. So, w/o watching this all the way through, I can't be 100 % certain it's the Documentary in question. I think so.

Please, I don't wish to spark any political debates here. If anyone wishes to discuss it, or if anyone wishes to task me over using it as an example of a possible similar Beowulf action that I won't like, please link it to your proper thread created in the 'Politics' sub forum.

https://youtu.be/theYFdlQNKE

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Last edited by cthia on Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by George J. Smith   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:00 pm

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pnakasone wrote:
cthia wrote:Simply the thought of it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth -- akin to the conspiracy theories (true or no) of the US government 'using' the tragedies of 911 (among other appalling things) to further its political goals.


Such a tactic should always leave a very bad taste in the mouth. But sometimes it may be a necessary choice to achieve a larger goal.


As in Churchill not ordering the evacuation of Coventry in WWII, he didn't want the Nazis to know the enigma codes had been broken.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Duckk   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:04 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:As in Churchill not ordering the evacuation of Coventry in WWII, he didn't want the Nazis to know the enigma codes had been broken.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_ ... _and_Ultra
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Silverwall   » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:28 pm

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Thanks for the quote Duck, Given that RFC clearly states that microjumping allows the terminus forces to intercept any SLN force well short of the planet lets look at what might cause heavy casualties. Here are 3 options that would be reasonable given the factions involved and their track history.

Option One: The SLN fleet is a red herring and a bio attack is perpetrated (Alison gets to be the heroic Harrington saving the day this time)

Option Two: While distracted by the SLN idiots Mesan Spider ships re-enact Oyster Bay. Hard to prevent, may get more sensor data to allow future detection, best case actually gets hardware to look at.

Option Three: Manticoran overconfidence or Beowulfian inexperiance causes all defending forces to be pulled out of position by a decoy force stooging round at the hyper limit on the far side of Beowulfs Sun and the manty forces are inside the hyper limit becasue they screwed up. Second large force hypers in on a crash course and brushes past the remaining light forces into orbit resulting in a furball in orbital range of the planet as BSDF and GA forces push them out again. Bits of dead SD land on large city a-la Yawata Crossing. Decoy force will almost certainly suffer 100% kills as correct response is to crush it into dust to free forces to return to Beowulf orbit. SLN suffers (another) catastrophic loss of ships and moralle, Further moralle damage when average crew/officers realise they effectivly committed an edict violation.
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