Information I'd love to know

ChronicRder wrote:I'd love to know what happened to all of Manticore's old Dreadnaughts that used to make up the bulk of their Wall? Surely they coudln't all have been simply filling slips at Grendelsbane or the main shipyards in the Manticore system. I also haven't seen evidence that the ships were trasnferred to Silesia. Where is that reserve fleet? If nothing else, they could be turned into new platforms to reinforce patrols in the Talbot Cluster, right? Nevermind selling them to Torch. We've seen what they can do with corvettes. Imagine what they could do with some DN, even obsolete (by Mantie standards anyway) ones!

Most of the surviving DNs went to the breakers between the wars. Looking at the numbers of surviving SDs, it is apparent that most of Manticore's losses in the first war were DNs or the smaller SDs, so the admiralty was not unrealistic to call them "deathtraps", especially when each took 3-4 thousand spacers with them.

It is telling that none of the DNs were sold to alliance navies as the extraneous SDs were, Grayson and Erewhon each bought the remains of the older Manty SD classes at cut rate prices, but neither boughts DNs (Even though Erewhon's 1st war Navy fielded DNs)

The Last 2 classes in use were the Beam heavy Gladiator class and the newest Bellerophon class. As of 1921, only 6 Bellerophon were still in commission and the rest were in the reserve.

It doesn't make sense to keep a DN in service when a far tougher Gryphon or Sphinx SD is unused and sitting in the reserve, as ~150 of them are. It essentially comes down to the same argument as for advocating for SLN SDs in Manty service - there are far better hulls available in large quantities which could (and should) be used before the DNs are returned to service. (except, I would want a Manty DN before an SLN SD)

As for giving one to Torch, it's required manpower makes it slightly unrealistic - Torch has a navy of ~14 Frigates (each with less then 120 men) and had 3 Manty DDs on order from Hauptman in 1921, for a total of less then 3000 spacers. After the battle of Torch, they were gifted with 5 CAs, 3 CLs and some DDs, which were outside their plans to man. Going by Torch's planned 1921 navy of 14 FFs and 3 DDs, to man 1 DN, the Torch navy would have to mothball all 14 FFs and the 3 planned DD to get enough manpower from their current talent pool, and still fall short of the manpower needed.

munroburton wrote:The only useful old waller are the handful of Gryphons refitted with MK23 launchers. But they were probably part of Home Fleet at the first Battle of Manticore.

Nitpick I believe a few SDs in both Grayson and Manticore were also built / refit to handle the 1st gen capacitor powered MDMs. Those are less effective than Mk23s, but still more than a match for Cataphract equipped enemies. If any of those SDs are still in service I'd count them as still useful.

However it's not with diverting resources into converting any more old wallers. Its too expensive in time and materials for what you get; better to build 1 new SD(P) than refit 2 or 3 tube wallers.

Jonathan_S wrote:

munroburton wrote:The only useful old waller are the handful of Gryphons refitted with MK23 launchers. But they were probably part of Home Fleet at the first Battle of Manticore.

Nitpick I believe a few SDs in both Grayson and Manticore were also built / refit to handle the 1st gen capacitor powered MDMs. Those are less effective than Mk23s, but still more than a match for Cataphract equipped enemies. If any of those SDs are still in service I'd count them as still useful.

However it's not with diverting resources into converting any more old wallers. Its too expensive in time and materials for what you get; better to build 1 new SD(P) than refit 2 or 3 tube wallers.

I doubt any of the 3 Manticore SDs had MDMs (Built in the 1700s and laid up by 1905pd).

But to your point, HoS pretty much described the Victory/Sphinx/Gryphon build as a constant state of development, with the class names as breaks where major changes were made, even though a late Victory and an early Sphinx were very similar, and ditto for the later Sphinx/Gryphon transition. While no where in text, it is believed that the last few Gryphons probably had Mk 41 (capacitor MDM) tubes as built, since their build coincides with the construction and work up of the Minotaur. In addition, the Medusa SD(p)s were originally on the books as the Gryphon Flight 3 (Which, if built, probably would have looked similar to the Grayson Benjamin the Great Class, but with MDMs.)

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Nitpick I believe a few SDs in both Grayson and Manticore were also built / refit to handle the 1st gen capacitor powered MDMs. Those are less effective than Mk23s, but still more than a match for Cataphract equipped enemies. If any of those SDs are still in service I'd count them as still useful.

However it's not with diverting resources into converting any more old wallers. Its too expensive in time and materials for what you get; better to build 1 new SD(P) than refit 2 or 3 tube wallers.

I doubt any of the 3 Manticore SDs had MDMs (Built in the 1700s and laid up by 1905pd).

But to your point, HoS pretty much described the Victory/Sphinx/Gryphon build as a constant state of development, with the class names as breaks where major changes were made, even though a late Victory and an early Sphinx were very similar, and ditto for the later Sphinx/Gryphon transition. While no where in text, it is believed that the last few Gryphons probably had Mk 41 (capacitor MDM) tubes as built, since their build coincides with the construction and work up of the Minotaur. In addition, the Medusa SD(p)s were originally on the books as the Gryphon Flight 3 (Which, if built, probably would have looked similar to the Grayson Benjamin the Great Class, but with MDMs.)

I said "Manticore built" not "Manticore-class"

And while I didn't go back and find I I believe we saw some MDM equipped Gryphons during the Buttercup era. That would obviously have had to use capacitor MDMs like a Mk41. (And it'd be almost as much of a pain to convert a Mk41 equipped SD to a Mk23 as it would to do it to an SDM equipped one. All that extra armor cofferdamming around the new fusion ignitor in the missile tube)

IIRC TF 34 took the last DN's (12) in service, they were DECOMED shortly after second Marsh, the rest were already DECOMED and or scrapped prior to 1918 PD.

saber964 wrote:IIRC TF 34 took the last DN's (12) in service, they were DECOMED shortly after second Marsh, the rest were already DECOMED and or scrapped prior to 1918 PD.

The last 11 DNs were sent to Marsh with Honor. 6 active DNs were on the may 1920 shiplist. In the April 1921 HoS, the surviving Bellerophons and Gladiators are mentioned as being in the reserve, though none are listed there in the 1920 shiplist.

Speculation is the DNs were left in Marsh/ Silensia to give Sarnow a serious core force to enforce the takeover, without diverting any required hulls from the war effort, Similiar to the ancient Hercules being left as the flagship in (friendly) Talbott.

Like a certain burger joint listing the number of customers served -- and indirectly the implied butcher's bill that allows it -- can you imagine if this site had a counter tallying the butcher's bill of all the Navies in the Honorverse, like a certain burger joint listing the number served?


I'd love to know the total butcher's bill of both Haven and Manticore from the opening round of hostilities beginning in King Rogers era up to now.

Would Manticore's bill rock us?

Would Haven's bill totally shock us?

cthia wrote:Like a certain burger joint listing the number of customers served -- and indirectly the implied butcher's bill that allows it -- can you imagine if this site had a counter tallying the butcher's bill of all the Navies in the Honorverse, like a certain burger joint listing the number served?


I'd love to know the total butcher's bill of both Haven and Manticore from the opening round of hostilities beginning in King Rogers era up to now.

Would Manticore's bill rock us?

Would Haven's bill totally shock us?

RMN ships' galleys only serve burgers about once every two weeks, and PRH ships don't serve burgers at all, they serve personal size baguettes with camembert and moules marinieres.

dscott8 wrote:

cthia wrote:Like a certain burger joint listing the number of customers served -- and indirectly the implied butcher's bill that allows it -- can you imagine if this site had a counter tallying the butcher's bill of all the Navies in the Honorverse, like a certain burger joint listing the number served?


I'd love to know the total butcher's bill of both Haven and Manticore from the opening round of hostilities beginning in King Rogers era up to now.

Would Manticore's bill rock us?

Would Haven's bill totally shock us?

RMN ships' galleys only serve burgers about once every two weeks, and PRH ships don't serve burgers at all, they serve personal size baguettes with camembert and moules marinieres.

I'm not sure if you're joking or if you actually think I'm talking about burgers.

I would love to see a story about Jason's arrival, Roger Winton's reaction to the presence of the frigates around Manticore and the revelation of The Final War and the terrible toll it took on Earth's inhabitants.