Honorverse - Snotty Row

cthia wrote:At All Costs

"A good point." She nodded. "But that means the defense pods deployed around Sphinx are going to be coming into range of them, too, and the system reconnaissance platforms are going to give the defense pods very good accuracy."

I don't understand how the recon platforms can affect accuracy. These are not Apollo systems and they are not feeding telemetry to the missiles. The platforms are FTLing telemetry back to the platforms that then have to course correct the missiles but from platform to missiles is FTL free. No?

Well getting a close range look at their emissions profiles later you better pre-program the missiles. So they've got a better idea what the real targets look like; letting them better discriminate against decoys. And getting an FTL looks at their ECM still lets you get faster updates to the missile than if you had to wait to receive the light speed emissions before sending your light speed updates.
It's not Apollo, but it's almost like Apollo-light. <shrug>

cthia wrote:At All Costs

"A good point." She nodded. "But that means the defense pods deployed around Sphinx are going to be coming into range of them, too, and the system reconnaissance platforms are going to give the defense pods very good accuracy."

I don't understand how the recon platforms can affect accuracy. These are not Apollo systems and they are not feeding telemetry to the missiles. The platforms are FTLing telemetry back to the platforms that then have to course correct the missiles but from platform to missiles is FTL free. No?

The recon platforms can gather sensor data and relay them at FTL comm speeds to the launch control platform. Without them, launch control would be relying on its shipboard sensors which are limited to light speed data(with the exception of gravitics - impellers only). Until the missiles get close enough to their targets that the time loop for their own sensors is shorter, they can be assisted in ignoring decoys or picking out more vulnerable(damaged or poorly maintained) targets.

With multiple recon platforms looking from different angles, launch control can also triangulate the data and provide missiles with better targeting possibilities.

cthia wrote:At All Costs

"A good point." She nodded. "But that means the defense pods deployed around Sphinx are going to be coming into range of them, too, and the system reconnaissance platforms are going to give the defense pods very good accuracy."

I don't understand how the recon platforms can affect accuracy. These are not Apollo systems and they are not feeding telemetry to the missiles. The platforms are FTLing telemetry back to the platforms that then have to course correct the missiles but from platform to missiles is FTL free. No?

Johnathan_S wrote:Well getting a close range look at their emissions profiles later you better pre-program the missiles. So they've got a better idea what the real targets look like; letting them better discriminate against decoys. And getting an FTL looks at their ECM still lets you get faster updates to the missile than if you had to wait to receive the light speed emissions before sending your light speed updates.
It's not Apollo, but it's almost like Apollo-light. <shrug>

That actually makes real-time sense Johnathan. Thanks.

Don't think too hard about missile combat in the Honorverse, there are some strange underlying assumptions. Like it works like the game Harpoon, circa 1985.

cthia wrote:I don't understand how the recon platforms can affect accuracy.

The more accurately you know the enemy position and course when you fire, the fewer corrections will be needed over the flight of the missile.

cthia wrote:

At All Costs wrote:"A good point." She nodded. "But that means the defense pods deployed around Sphinx are going to be coming into range of them, too, and the system reconnaissance platforms are going to give the defense pods very good accuracy."

cthia wrote:I don't understand how the recon platforms can affect accuracy. These are not Apollo systems and they are not feeding telemetry to the missiles. The platforms are FTLing telemetry back to the platforms that then have to course correct the missiles but from platform to missiles is FTL free. No?

Johnathan_S wrote:Well getting a close range look at their emissions profiles later you better pre-program the missiles. So they've got a better idea what the real targets look like; letting them better discriminate against decoys. And getting an FTL looks at their ECM still lets you get faster updates to the missile than if you had to wait to receive the light speed emissions before sending your light speed updates.
It's not Apollo, but it's almost like Apollo-light. <shrug>

That actually makes real-time sense Johnathan. Thanks.

It's what Terekhov did during second half of the Battle of Monica:

The Shadow of Saganami, Chapter 58 wrote:"Ms. Zilwicki, lock the Alpha-Seven array directly to Lieutenant Bagwell." He turned his chair to face the EWO. "These people's defenses are going to be good—very good. We need to hammer them, and to do that we need data on their EW capabilities—fast. The rest of the Squadron will have over ten minutes to engage after they enter their effective powered envelope, but for them to use that time, we need to feed them everything we can pry loose about these people's defensive systems, and our missile range advantage is the only crowbar we have. We need to make them show us their best, people."
"Understood, Sir," Bagwell said.
"Very well, Ms. Hearns—open fire!"

***Snip***

Terekhov bared his teeth at the tactical plot. Despite the range, the FTL reports from Helen's recon drones gave him a real-time, close-range picture of what was happening. He hadn't given Abigail specific instructions on how to employ the EW platforms seeded into her attack salvos, but he recognized what she'd done. She'd used all of the available slots in the initial double broadside for Dazzlers but locked them down until they detected the launch of the enemy's first counter-missiles. When the powerful jammers did come on-line, the Monican CMs had already established lock and been cut loose from the launching ships' control links. But the counter-missiles' onboard seekers weren't up to the challenge of that sudden, massive pulse of jamming right in their faces.

***Snip***

Guthrie Bagwell's analysis of the enemy's electronic warfare capabilities had gone out to the entire Squadron, and if they lacked Hexapuma's reach, even the older destroyers could come close to matching her penetration aids over the range they did have.

Boldface is my emphasis.

Helen's analysis of the battle:

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 30 wrote:"Anyway, we knew we sure couldn't afford to let them into energy range of us, and because our laser heads were so much lighter, we knew we were going to have to concentrate a lot of hits, both in terms of location and time, if we were going to get through their armor. The Kitty—I mean, Hexapuma—was the only ship we had that was Mark 16-capable, and that meant we couldn't achieve that kind of concentration outside standard missile range. So what the captain was actually using our long-range fire for was to get the best possible feel for the Monicans' active defenses and EW capabilities. He was using the Mark 16s to force them to defend themselves so we could get a read on their defenses and pass it to the rest of the squadron to maximize our fire's effectiveness once they came into the range of the rest of our ships.

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Mission of Honor, Chapter 15 wrote:“You were saying, Michael?”
“I was sayin’, Milady, that findin’ myself up against Apollo seemed like just a tiny bit of overkill.”
He smiled at her, and although it would have taken someone who knew him very well, Michelle recognized the twinkle deep in his eyes. Not every subordinate flag officer who’d been so thoroughly (one might almost, she admitted, say shamelessly) blindsided by a weapons system the other side shouldn’t have possessed would have found the experience amusing. Fortunately, Oversteegen at least had a sense of humor.
“To be honest, it seemed that way to me, too.” She quirked a smile of her own at him. “I didn’t do it just to be nasty, though. I mean, I did do it to be nasty, but that wasn’t the only reason I did it.”
This time there was a general mutter of laughter, and Oversteegen’s hand twitched in the gesture of a fencing master acknowledging a touch.
“The other reason I did it, though,” she continued more seriously, “was that I wanted an opportunity to see someone—a live, flesh-and-blood someone, not an AI-administered simulation—respond to Apollo. I couldn’t find anyone here in Tenth Fleet who wouldn’t realize what was happening as soon as she saw it, but I could at least set up a situation in which she—or, in this case, he—didn’t know it was coming ahead of time.”
“And is your lab rat permitted t’ ask how he performed?” he inquired genially.
“Not bad at all for someone who lost eighty-five percent of his total command,” she reassured him, and another chuckle ran around the squadron and division commanders seated at the table with them.
“Actually, Sir,” Sir Aivars Terekhov said, “I thought it was even more impressive that you managed to take out three of the op force’s superdreadnoughts in return.”
More than one head nodded in agreement, and Oversteegen shrugged.
“I remembered readin’ your report from Monica,” he said. “You might say I had a proprietary interest in your actin’ tac officer’s performance. I was impressed by th’ way you used your Ghost Rider platforms t’ reduce th’ telemetry lag for your Mark 16s. Didn’t seem t’ me there was any reason I couldn’t do th’ same thing with Mark 23s.” He shrugged. “It’s not as good as Apollo, but it’s a lot better than nothin’.”

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

cthia wrote:

At All Costs wrote:"A good point." She nodded. "But that means the defense pods deployed around Sphinx are going to be coming into range of them, too, and the system reconnaissance platforms are going to give the defense pods very good accuracy."

cthia wrote:I don't understand how the recon platforms can affect accuracy. These are not Apollo systems and they are not feeding telemetry to the missiles. The platforms are FTLing telemetry back to the platforms that then have to course correct the missiles but from platform to missiles is FTL free. No?

Johnathan_S wrote:Well getting a close range look at their emissions profiles later you better pre-program the missiles. So they've got a better idea what the real targets look like; letting them better discriminate against decoys. And getting an FTL looks at their ECM still lets you get faster updates to the missile than if you had to wait to receive the light speed emissions before sending your light speed updates.
It's not Apollo, but it's almost like Apollo-light. <shrug>

That actually makes real-time sense Johnathan. Thanks.

Vince wrote:It's what Terekhov did during second half of the Battle of Monica:

The Shadow of Saganami, Chapter 58 wrote:"Ms. Zilwicki, lock the Alpha-Seven array directly to Lieutenant Bagwell." He turned his chair to face the EWO. "These people's defenses are going to be good—very good. We need to hammer them, and to do that we need data on their EW capabilities—fast. The rest of the Squadron will have over ten minutes to engage after they enter their effective powered envelope, but for them to use that time, we need to feed them everything we can pry loose about these people's defensive systems, and our missile range advantage is the only crowbar we have. We need to make them show us their best, people."
"Understood, Sir," Bagwell said.
"Very well, Ms. Hearns—open fire!"

***Snip***

Terekhov bared his teeth at the tactical plot. Despite the range, the FTL reports from Helen's recon drones gave him a real-time, close-range picture of what was happening. He hadn't given Abigail specific instructions on how to employ the EW platforms seeded into her attack salvos, but he recognized what she'd done. She'd used all of the available slots in the initial double broadside for Dazzlers but locked them down until they detected the launch of the enemy's first counter-missiles. When the powerful jammers did come on-line, the Monican CMs had already established lock and been cut loose from the launching ships' control links. But the counter-missiles' onboard seekers weren't up to the challenge of that sudden, massive pulse of jamming right in their faces.

***Snip***

Guthrie Bagwell's analysis of the enemy's electronic warfare capabilities had gone out to the entire Squadron, and if they lacked Hexapuma's reach, even the older destroyers could come close to matching her penetration aids over the range they did have.

Boldface is my emphasis.

Helen's analysis of the battle:

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 30 wrote:"Anyway, we knew we sure couldn't afford to let them into energy range of us, and because our laser heads were so much lighter, we knew we were going to have to concentrate a lot of hits, both in terms of location and time, if we were going to get through their armor. The Kitty—I mean, Hexapuma—was the only ship we had that was Mark 16-capable, and that meant we couldn't achieve that kind of concentration outside standard missile range. So what the captain was actually using our long-range fire for was to get the best possible feel for the Monicans' active defenses and EW capabilities. He was using the Mark 16s to force them to defend themselves so we could get a read on their defenses and pass it to the rest of the squadron to maximize our fire's effectiveness once they came into the range of the rest of our ships.

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Mission of Honor, Chapter 15 wrote:“You were saying, Michael?”
“I was sayin’, Milady, that findin’ myself up against Apollo seemed like just a tiny bit of overkill.”
He smiled at her, and although it would have taken someone who knew him very well, Michelle recognized the twinkle deep in his eyes. Not every subordinate flag officer who’d been so thoroughly (one might almost, she admitted, say shamelessly) blindsided by a weapons system the other side shouldn’t have possessed would have found the experience amusing. Fortunately, Oversteegen at least had a sense of humor.
“To be honest, it seemed that way to me, too.” She quirked a smile of her own at him. “I didn’t do it just to be nasty, though. I mean, I did do it to be nasty, but that wasn’t the only reason I did it.”
This time there was a general mutter of laughter, and Oversteegen’s hand twitched in the gesture of a fencing master acknowledging a touch.
“The other reason I did it, though,” she continued more seriously, “was that I wanted an opportunity to see someone—a live, flesh-and-blood someone, not an AI-administered simulation—respond to Apollo. I couldn’t find anyone here in Tenth Fleet who wouldn’t realize what was happening as soon as she saw it, but I could at least set up a situation in which she—or, in this case, he—didn’t know it was coming ahead of time.”
“And is your lab rat permitted t’ ask how he performed?” he inquired genially.
“Not bad at all for someone who lost eighty-five percent of his total command,” she reassured him, and another chuckle ran around the squadron and division commanders seated at the table with them.
“Actually, Sir,” Sir Aivars Terekhov said, “I thought it was even more impressive that you managed to take out three of the op force’s superdreadnoughts in return.”
More than one head nodded in agreement, and Oversteegen shrugged.
“I remembered readin’ your report from Monica,” he said. “You might say I had a proprietary interest in your actin’ tac officer’s performance. I was impressed by th’ way you used your Ghost Rider platforms t’ reduce th’ telemetry lag for your Mark 16s. Didn’t seem t’ me there was any reason I couldn’t do th’ same thing with Mark 23s.” He shrugged. “It’s not as good as Apollo, but it’s a lot better than nothin’.”

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Nice dig out of the archives. No wonder I missed it. Thanks Vince.

A snotty question.

Naval fighters like the F-14 Tomcat's main weapons are missiles. It switches to guns only when it is too close for missiles.

Honorverse ship's main weapons are missiles. It switches to guns (energy weapons) within knife range -- but because energy weapons are more effective.

However, why are missiles not launched in tandem with energy weapons? Ok, I'm aware of one reason. Missiles launched from such a small range would come in so slow that point defense would have a field day. Ok, but what about special missiles in that case? Missiles only have to have a single stage, making for a much smaller missile. In fact, a half stage would work at knife range.

Another thing I don't understand is the targeting of point defense. Point defense is targeted. But what locks onto a missile? Radar? Yet, why isn't ship's radar affected by ECM that has such a huge energy budget in close, blinding even ship's radar or ability to lock on?

Just tackling the first of your questions

cthia wrote:A snotty question.

Naval fighters like the F-14 Tomcat's main weapons are missiles. It switches to guns only when it is too close for missiles.

Honorverse ship's main weapons are missiles. It switches to guns (energy weapons) within knife range -- but because energy weapons are more effective.

However, why are missiles not launched in tandem with energy weapons? Ok, I'm aware of one reason. Missiles launched from such a small range would come in so slow that point defense would have a field day. Ok, but what about special missiles in that case? Missiles only have to have a single stage, making for a much smaller missile. In fact, a half stage would work at knife range.

Well about the fastest anybody's managed to get any missile to fly is the overpowered nodes on a CM. If you used the latest RMN designs a CM powered missile would take about 23-24 seconds to reach laserhead standoff (50,000 km) at energy range (400,000 km). It would have a max velocity of 31,200 km/s (0.1c) and be within CM range for it's entire flight, and PDLC range (70,000 km) for about about 1.5 seconds (compared to the 0.85 seconds a SDM would take to cross that distance; or the 0.28 seconds for an MDM).

So the missile would be relatively easy to kill. Plus as we saw in HotQ it can give time for a light opponent to roll wedge against them missiles.

And if you are exchanging energy fire with your opponent there are a couple problems with firing missile tubes near-simultaneously:
a) the missiles' wedges would block your energy fire
b) you have to open a "gunport" to let the missile through your sidewall for a relatively long time. A missile is likely to provide less protection than the sidewall; so the energy mount will likely blow through the missile and and gap in your sidewall and inflict significant damage to your ship.

Now we've seen (HotQ; Theisman's CL) a ship use missiles in energy range; but they use them largely instead of beams (or at least don't try to use both near-simultaneously from the same broadside). And they're twisting enough that the missiles can launch when their off-axis enough not to offer a clean shot back through the gunports.

With podlayers you don't have the same sidewall problems and the wedge interference is reduced. OTOH the pods need to drop astern clear of the wedge before they launch. That gives your opponent a good chance to engage them with energy fire (or a CM) and destroy them before they get their missile off.


So it can be done, but whether its worth the risks and tradeoffs seems to depend on whether your ship is effective at fighting with it's energy mounts (plus of course energy range combat has become extremely rare).

cthia wrote:Ok, but what about special missiles in that case?

Why use magazine space for missiles that are only useful at ranges most ships try hard to avoid?