(SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.

timmopussycat wrote:What's even easier is to have a Mantie news network dispatch boat (wink, wink) in orbit around Beowolf. Said dispatch boat goes up into hyper on the arrival of the Solarian fleet and meets a Mantie fleet waiting in hyper against just this event.

So they will speedily fly out from orbit to the hyper limit, then transit to hyper? Which should mean that the SLN fleet will be in orbit around Beowulf about the moment the the RMN fleet crosses the Alpha wall...

I'm not sure this is optimal plan for protecting Beowulf.

kzt wrote:

timmopussycat wrote:What's even easier is to have a Mantie news network dispatch boat (wink, wink) in orbit around Beowolf. Said dispatch boat goes up into hyper on the arrival of the Solarian fleet and meets a Mantie fleet waiting in hyper against just this event.

So they will speedily fly out from orbit to the hyper limit, then transit to hyper? Which should mean that the SLN fleet will be in orbit around Beowulf about the moment the the RMN fleet crosses the Alpha wall...

I'm not sure this is optimal plan for protecting Beowulf.

It sort of ignores the fact that Manticoran trade reps, banking reps and others have dispatch boats; that a ship like an unarmed "survey ship" could be assigned to an emabassy Naval officer (there was a Young assigned to the role in "Beginnings") so communication with the fleet at the terminus could quite possibly be fast. But Weber has ships 6 hours out of Manticore (at the MWJ) using regular space instead of hopping into the alpha band and moving to the hyper limit, so it takes all day (19 hours). Probably a reason for that somewhere. . . . . which never needed an infodump till now.


Happy Holidays!

Rob

Somtaaw wrote:Scientists have a max acceleration of 422 (unclear if this is military, or 80% of military), while Invictus(i) have a maximum of 526 gravs.

That's full military I'm sure. 422g is right on the pre-grayson compensator curve for 100% power in a 6.8 mton ship. Almost exactly what HoS gives as the full accel for the 6.75 mton Majestic-class DN.

Theemile wrote:I Believe the Terminus is ~4 hours away from the Beowulf system. Until the publicite is completed, it has been agreed that there will be no alliance presence in the Beowulf system to combat arguments of forcible coercion- so RMN forces are located at the Terminus.

So - when the SLN does come calling, they will have ~8 hours before an RMN taskforce can respond. When defenses will be completed and available to the BSDF is in question.

We know the SLN force isn't leaving Beowulf space, the question is what happens in that 8 hours they have before the RMN response, and what really causes the loss of live David hinted at.

Assuming you meant 4 Lighthours away (which I didn't bother to try and double check; but seems plausible. The Manticoran junction is 7 LH out)
It's that only true if:
a) Manticore hasn't put hermes buoys linking the inner system (and any FTL capable recon platforms out near the hyper limit) to their forces around the terminus; and
b) They don't microjump behind the SLN fleet
(4 LH is too far for shipboard sensors to be likely to detect even a whole fleet's hyperspace emergence)

Now microjumping is a bit risky, as it tends to significantly scatter your forces. If there's a 2nd SLN formation in hyper waiting to spring that might expose the RMN units to a (low to moderate) risk of some energy range combat.

Dropping as much as 3.5 lightminutes behind the initial SLN force leaves them well within Apollo range. Using Hermes buoys and microjumping the RMN units should be able to get there easily within 30-40 minutes - at which point SLN SDs can have made it at most 2.46 LM inside the hyper limit. Assumptions: 40 minutes elapsed time; transition exactly on the hyper limit; crash translation from 0.6c in the Alpha bands, full 'safe' accel 80% of 422g = 337.6g. If they went to full emergency accel they'd be 2.59 LM in under the same assumptions

So the Manties can drop in about a full lightminute outside the limit and still bring the Sollies under Apollo fire. Ouch.


Now even with a single terminus you'd probably still have to vector you jump to land you clear of the resonance zone; and it would work much better if your terminus area response forces where also prepositioned clear of the RZ. But fortunately the SLN also has to emerge from hyper clear of the RZ, so they can't approach from anywhere where you can't jump in on their tail.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote: But Weber has ships 6 hours out of Manticore (at the MWJ) using regular space instead of hopping into the alpha band and moving to the hyper limit, so it takes all day (19 hours). Probably a reason for that somewhere. . . . . which never needed an infodump till now.

It is explained somewhere. Essentially jumping into the vicinity of the junction is not safe.

I'm confused as to why the GA would even need a dispatch boat in Beowulf space.

1- The Beowulf Board of Directors would prefer to have GA military support, but due to political concerns cannot have that support in system (only at the WH).
2- It is highly probable that the Beowulf military (at least the flag officers that matter) feel the same.

1+2=3

3- Simply have Beowulf courier or dispatch boats in position to hyper out immediately upon notification of a Solly fleet translating into the system. Run hermes buoys (which I presume have already been seeded in the system even before the missile defense pods) to the couriers.

The result is absolutely zero GA presence in the Beowulf system itself, only at the terminus, and it will be Beowulf calling for GA support against the SLN. That solves the political aspect that the Board of Directors are worried about (it appearing that the GA is threatening voters) while ensuring the fastest possible response.

Of course, I think we are also under-estimating the BSDF. I would be shocked if they hadn't made enough under the radar updates to their platforms and systems to be at least twice as good, on a per platform basis, as the SLN. I would actually guess that the 33 SDs that Tsang encountered probably had a 50-50 shot at taking all 100 of her SDs in a stand up fight. I'm not saying the BSDF has MDM missiles or anything like that, just that it would be shocking if they didn't have more powerful (and slightly longer ranged) SDMs and much better EW capability. Along with better anti-missile defense doctrine and capabilities.

cthia wrote:I still think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting a stealthed pre-positioning of ships for the express purpose of getting in a sneaky shot. Apollo ships don't need sneaky in that fashion. I'm talking about a prepositioning closer in-system simply to tactically limit response time that sitting at the junction would incur. I was simply using Fearless' similar tactic as an example. Or even what the Masadan-Peep operation accomplished when Raoul was killed.

Only thing I'm misunderstanding, is how a stealthed ship partway into Beowulf is any different regardless of WHY it's a stealthed ship partway from Junction into Beowulf?

Stealthed warships inside Beowulf space could be considered 'threat of force' on influencing Beowulf's succession vote. To be a threat to force a limited decision time on hostile Solarian, means you have to drop stealth during an incursion. Which means you're back to the argument of why Manticore isn't doing that.

Not to mention, that again, stealthed ships that intend to pull a fleet level clone of Fearless vs D'Orville, are going to be sitting in space with a net zero speed. Alliance ships aren't optimized anymore for graser battles, and they're designed for speed, with their ridiculously efficient compensators compared to SLN ships.

Where the example I gave, stealthily emplacing a minefield after an SLN force dropped out of hyper, and went charging in for Beowulf on a least-time course (which is a predictable route)... becomes "what Alliance Forces? The ones that were sitting out at the Junction? We loyal Beowulfans laid a minefield to stop your corrupt government from launching exactly this sort of sneak attack."

Stealthed ships are stealthed ships, your ideas are all about openly engaging, which defeats the point of being stealthed and/or sitting at the Junction instead of orbitting Beowulf itself.

Erls wrote:I'm confused as to why the GA would even need a dispatch boat in Beowulf space.

1- The Beowulf Board of Directors would prefer to have GA military support, but due to political concerns cannot have that support in system (only at the WH).
2- It is highly probable that the Beowulf military (at least the flag officers that matter) feel the same.

This is the bit I don't get. The Grand alliance KNOWS that people are getting secret orders, getting mind controlled and are lying their ass off at every available opportunity so why risk your most advanced resource base and/or only planet on the chance that the mandarins and/or the mesan alliance are not going to do something violent and stupid.

Right now the whole thing reeks of the Idiot Ball http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall simply to have something bad happen to Beowulf.

For me leaving Beowulf's ass out in the air to known bad things from the SLN just for PR reasons strikes me as criminal negligence on the part of the Beowulf government. It is also most out of character with their actions to date (e.g warning Haven about the attack on Manticore by Fillareta, announcing the succession from the Star League etc)

Now RFC is pretty sneaky so I am hoping that he has a plan that involves more direct action from the Mesan Alliance to justify the suggested 10 mil casualties without straining my suspension of disbelief.

Somtaaw wrote:

cthia wrote:I still think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting a stealthed pre-positioning of ships for the express purpose of getting in a sneaky shot. Apollo ships don't need sneaky in that fashion. I'm talking about a prepositioning closer in-system simply to tactically limit response time that sitting at the junction would incur. I was simply using Fearless' similar tactic as an example. Or even what the Masadan-Peep operation accomplished when Raoul was killed.

Only thing I'm misunderstanding, is how a stealthed ship partway into Beowulf is any different regardless of WHY it's a stealthed ship partway from Junction into Beowulf?

Stealthed warships inside Beowulf space could be considered 'threat of force' on influencing Beowulf's succession vote. To be a threat to force a limited decision time on hostile Solarian, means you have to drop stealth during an incursion. Which means you're back to the argument of why Manticore isn't doing that.

Not to mention, that again, stealthed ships that intend to pull a fleet level clone of Fearless vs D'Orville, are going to be sitting in space with a net zero speed. Alliance ships aren't optimized anymore for graser battles, and they're designed for speed, with their ridiculously efficient compensators compared to SLN ships.

Where the example I gave, stealthily emplacing a minefield after an SLN force dropped out of hyper, and went charging in for Beowulf on a least-time course (which is a predictable route)... becomes "what Alliance Forces? The ones that were sitting out at the Junction? We loyal Beowulfans laid a minefield to stop your corrupt government from launching exactly this sort of sneak attack."

Stealthed ships are stealthed ships, your ideas are all about openly engaging, which defeats the point of being stealthed and/or sitting at the Junction instead of orbitting Beowulf itself.

Stealthed ships would only be there in case of fire. Same as Henke's ships at the previous encounter at the Beowulf junction. No fire. No need to break glass and light off impellers.

In case of fire, all legal bets and concerns are off anyways. In case of fire, 10M lives become the strategic objective, not legalities.

Apollo has kill range outside of any SLN threat. As Honor just sat to watch Tourville... beyond his effective range.

Case of fire already passed, Manticore's making a point of stepping away from Beowulf to give the illusion they're not forcing the vote.

Having forces stealthed, that drop their stealth to do anything less than outright destroy an incoming Solarian fleet, and a 100% destruction with zero survivors at that, becomes a propaganda master's wet dream.

With that sort of 'evidence' of Manty 'foul-play', the Solarian League instantly gets plenty of propaganda showing how Manticore uses violence, and threat of same, to manipulate others. And that the Solarian League is only doing the proper and humane thing by fighting them, and so on and so forth. And all the League had to do, was send a large task force they were already going to send. If it worked and they took over Beowulf, they can spin the vote to show Beowulf didn't really want to secede from the League (Manty force!), they lose a whole fleet (Manty aggression!), or they discover stealthed units that threatened them off (Manty aggression and arrogance!)

No matter how Manticore tries to play it, if they engage openly in any format.... they lose in propaganda wars. Even though those-in-the-know already lean towards Manticore, and those in the Shell or Verge do as well, all the Core Worlds believe the propaganda from the Mandarins. That's why both the Beowulfan and Manticoran embassies were getting mobbed and such... people (and a large majority at that) believe the lies.



in the unfortunate case of a minefield, nothing that was openly Manticoran, or even a Manticoran Auxiliary, engaged at all. There's very little that can be spun there, you could argue that since mines are little more than missile warheads with no impeller drives it's obviously Manty weaponry... but Manticore's already shown the Mandarins they don't need to be deceptive to wreck whole fleets. Filareta, Crandall, and Byng all being dead from Manticoran units firing openly, and records of such being provided openly to the Mandarins.

Loren Pechtel wrote:If I were the GA I would dump a bunch of Apollo pods in the system. Pods are quite stealthy, nobody needs to know they are there so they won't have any influence on the vote.

You mean like the Mycroft defense system that was about two months from completion at last mention?

Mycroft is (will be) a defense system similar to Haven's Moriarty system with FTL missile control and Mk25(?) Apollo four-drive system defense missiles. The first installation in textev is the one going into Beowulf's defense.