Fresh Troops

Hi Saber964,

Why would they be less able?

From the beginning of the occupation in AMF there too few as most were integrated into the RCA as the ICA, so they had to be pretty good to cope, and what discrete textev is there that they were ever replaced?

The fact they remained marines and no Chisholmians etc replaced them implies any rotations were within the marines, who're not known for poor training.

Just because Americans have become accustomed to relatively short tours, don't think 19th century military custom didn't mean spending several years, often a decade or more, on station.

Pre-industrial societies could only spare 1-3% of their population for soldiers, usually the lower rate; so since Corisande had a population of 15 million, 150,000 is just 1%, but keep in mind how few of them had modern weapons, only a few with borrowed civilian rifles, so retraining for most is going to take rather longer than the optimists seem to think.

The EoC's net population was 72 million a few years ago, and Charis's industrialization may now support 2% or around 1.5 million men, perhaps 2.25 million next year, and eventually might reach 6% if the war lasted long enough according to Merlin in MTaT.

But I don't see the war lasting that long [5+ more years] given all the foreshadowing, then there may be training constraints in terms of how many can be trained simultaneously, since the inner circle thought they had more time to expand the army before the SoS, and the 20,000 man training detachments left at Maikelberg could probably train only 250-300,000 at a time and taking a year to do it.

Given the complexity of modern ICA infantry and dragoon tactics, which depends so much of finding and developing junior officers and NCO's, then training them, then integrating them into their units; the idea Corisandans can be properly retrained in a few month's is laughable.

Windshare was authorized 30,000 mounted enforcers, the Corisandans surprised so many were permitted; if they were somewhat modeled on ICA dragoons and their tactics, their tactical training might be less.

But I don't think Windshare likes shovels etc as much as the ICA dragoons.

L

saber964 wrote:Okay as I remember it the Corisandian Army has an authorized strength of 35000 troops and a like number of ICMC occupation forces. But there are also the troops that were mustered out of the RCoA at the end of the Charis-Corsidian War. These troops would not take long to retrain and refit IIRC the RCoA was roughly 100-150000 troops. Also at a guess the ICMC has been rotating out its garrison forces trading able bodied troops with less able troops.

Louis R wrote:I wouldn't bank too much on the Raven Lord's loyalty to Mother Church, if I were involved. The discussion between the Speaker and his son makes it pretty clear that Reformist, at the very least, sentiment is pretty strong among the younger population. I imagine that, as in the rest of the Islands, the hierarchy has been spending its moral capital, not building it, over the last half-century or so. Something the local prelates know very well given how the ranking local churchman was conspicuous by his absence when supporting the move west out of Chisholm was being discussed.

It doesn't take much banking on their loyalty to Mother Church to suppose they've got adequate reason not to put the handful of troops they possibly could at Charisian service.

I do agree that the sentiment toward Zion probably ranges mostly between indifference and disgust, but rebellion among a bunch of stubborn, conservative highlanders is going to take poking them or theirs, or ramping disgust up into rage. Plenty of mainland Reformists aren't eager to embrace schism, and they're more likely to be in places where they are hearing more about the atrocities of the Inquisition and the devastation wrought by the Sword of Schueler. The Raven Lands are populated far too diffusely to make for broadsheets and a lot of communication of news.

Where they have helped Charis so far, it's been a matter of commercial transactions that avoid any consideration of religious issues or arguably even political ones. That's the compromise they're making, or the cover under which they have to put their relations with heretics for their own Reformist but traditional people. If they were going to provide troops at all, they'd likely be mercenaries if that general policy stance did not change, but I doubt that they could push it that far or would want to risk it.

It's not a static situation, of course. News from the mainland will filter through the Raven Lands, if slowly, and trade and communication with Charis and Chisholm will make it clear these are not ravening demon-worshipers. I just doubt that pushing it as far as providing troops - and at that, in trivial numbers - is something they could do without more internal misgivings than they would care to take on, or that Charis would care to invite, not in the next year or two at least.

lyonheart wrote:
Duke Solomon, Nahrmahn's uncle, is apparently a pretty good general, so we might see his last campaign in Chisholm next year, which could be quite impressive.

He's also described as elderly, so he might not be up to the rigors of a mainland campaign. Especially WINTER campaigns.

He's probably make an excellent training camp CO in secure territory though.

Oh, I wouldn't think that they'd provide troops of any sort at this point. Mind you, I wouldn't rule out a handful of 'wild geese' going off on their own initiative; fighting for steady pay can be rather attractive for young fighting men when the raiding gets sparse.

The real point, though, is that that conservatism has pretty much been junked on the religious front, and easily enough that it probably wasn't at all general anymore. Their bridge to Zion was burned when they let Eastshare through without contesting every inch of the road. And they knew it, and their priests knew it.

JeffEngel wrote:

Louis R wrote:I wouldn't bank too much on the Raven Lord's loyalty to Mother Church, if I were involved. The discussion between the Speaker and his son makes it pretty clear that Reformist, at the very least, sentiment is pretty strong among the younger population. I imagine that, as in the rest of the Islands, the hierarchy has been spending its moral capital, not building it, over the last half-century or so. Something the local prelates know very well given how the ranking local churchman was conspicuous by his absence when supporting the move west out of Chisholm was being discussed.

It doesn't take much banking on their loyalty to Mother Church to suppose they've got adequate reason not to put the handful of troops they possibly could at Charisian service.

I do agree that the sentiment toward Zion probably ranges mostly between indifference and disgust, but rebellion among a bunch of stubborn, conservative highlanders is going to take poking them or theirs, or ramping disgust up into rage. Plenty of mainland Reformists aren't eager to embrace schism, and they're more likely to be in places where they are hearing more about the atrocities of the Inquisition and the devastation wrought by the Sword of Schueler. The Raven Lands are populated far too diffusely to make for broadsheets and a lot of communication of news.

Where they have helped Charis so far, it's been a matter of commercial transactions that avoid any consideration of religious issues or arguably even political ones. That's the compromise they're making, or the cover under which they have to put their relations with heretics for their own Reformist but traditional people. If they were going to provide troops at all, they'd likely be mercenaries if that general policy stance did not change, but I doubt that they could push it that far or would want to risk it.

It's not a static situation, of course. News from the mainland will filter through the Raven Lands, if slowly, and trade and communication with Charis and Chisholm will make it clear these are not ravening demon-worshipers. I just doubt that pushing it as far as providing troops - and at that, in trivial numbers - is something they could do without more internal misgivings than they would care to take on, or that Charis would care to invite, not in the next year or two at least.

Louis R wrote:Oh, I wouldn't think that they'd provide troops of any sort at this point. Mind you, I wouldn't rule out a handful of 'wild geese' going off on their own initiative; fighting for steady pay can be rather attractive for young fighting men when the raiding gets sparse.

The real point, though, is that that conservatism has pretty much been junked on the religious front, and easily enough that it probably wasn't at all general anymore. Their bridge to Zion was burned when they let Eastshare through without contesting every inch of the road. And they knew it, and their priests knew it.

Definitely, yes. That said, some people can persist in wishful thinking for a long, long while, and there's likely some Temple Loyalist sentiment in the Raven Lands that simply lost that argument. Granted, it's a sort of Temple "Loyalist" much like Charis still has that may not be down with the CoC exactly but would still get tortured to death by the Inquisition.

The Raven Lands' position means though that they can afford to indulge some wishful thinking and feel they can stay on a sort of fence - and the more ardent Reformists may feel a need to stick around home to keep an eye on any small minority of ardent Temple Loyalists who would do things extreme enough to make Clyntahn smile if they were given a fighting chance. Not being pushed does at least mean that they can adjust to rejecting the Temple over time, without the kinds of disturbances that have run through Corisande or Siddarmark and threaten Chisholm. (If not for the Sword of Schueler, Siddarmark and Silkiah may well have had the same experience for a while, but unlike the Raven Lands, they were never in a position to be able to carry that all the way to peaceful separation from the Temple.)

lyonheart wrote:Hi Saber964,

Why would they be less able?

From the beginning of the occupation in AMF there too few as most were integrated into the RCA as the ICA, so they had to be pretty good to cope, and what discrete textev is there that they were ever replaced?

The fact they remained marines and no Chisholmians etc replaced them implies any rotations were within the marines, who're not known for poor training.

Just because Americans have become accustomed to relatively short tours, don't think 19th century military custom didn't mean spending several years, often a decade or more, on station.

Pre-industrial societies could only spare 1-3% of their population for soldiers, usually the lower rate; so since Corisande had a population of 15 million, 150,000 is just 1%, but keep in mind how few of them had modern weapons, only a few with borrowed civilian rifles, so retraining for most is going to take rather longer than the optimists seem to think.

The EoC's net population was 72 million a few years ago, and Charis's industrialization may now support 2% or around 1.5 million men, perhaps 2.25 million next year, and eventually might reach 6% if the war lasted long enough according to Merlin in MTaT.

But I don't see the war lasting that long [5+ more years] given all the foreshadowing, then there may be training constraints in terms of how many can be trained simultaneously, since the inner circle thought they had more time to expand the army before the SoS, and the 20,000 man training detachments left at Maikelberg could probably train only 250-300,000 at a time and taking a year to do it.

Given the complexity of modern ICA infantry and dragoon tactics, which depends so much of finding and developing junior officers and NCO's, then training them, then integrating them into their units; the idea Corisandans can be properly retrained in a few month's is laughable.

Windshare was authorized 30,000 mounted enforcers, the Corisandans surprised so many were permitted; if they were somewhat modeled on ICA dragoons and their tactics, their tactical training might be less.

But I don't think Windshare likes shovels etc as much as the ICA dragoons.

L

saber964 wrote:Okay as I remember it the Corisandian Army has an authorized strength of 35000 troops and a like number of ICMC occupation forces. But there are also the troops that were mustered out of the RCoA at the end of the Charis-Corsidian War. These troops would not take long to retrain and refit IIRC the RCoA was roughly 100-150000 troops. Also at a guess the ICMC has been rotating out its garrison forces trading able bodied troops with less able troops.

What I'm talking about is rotating out troops that were wounded and either not fully healed or won't fully recover from wounds. E.g. Duke Darcos if he didn't have nanotech in him. What if he was Lt. Nobody and suffered the injury to his left(?) arm and hand Hector suffered. Police departments often do this for decorated officers near retirement.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Saber964,

Why would they be less able?

From the beginning of the occupation in AMF there too few as most were integrated into the RCA as the ICA, so they had to be pretty good to cope, and what discrete textev is there that they were ever replaced?

The fact they remained marines and no Chisholmians etc replaced them implies any rotations were within the marines, who're not known for poor training.

Just because Americans have become accustomed to relatively short tours, don't think 19th century military custom didn't mean spending several years, often a decade or more, on station.

Never mind 19th Century, my uncle, who was in the Royal Artillery posted to India, met his 10 year old sister for the 1st time on his return to England in 1937.

JeffEngel wrote:

Louis R wrote:Oh, I wouldn't think that they'd provide troops of any sort at this point. Mind you, I wouldn't rule out a handful of 'wild geese' going off on their own initiative; fighting for steady pay can be rather attractive for young fighting men when the raiding gets sparse.

The real point, though, is that that conservatism has pretty much been junked on the religious front, and easily enough that it probably wasn't at all general anymore. Their bridge to Zion was burned when they let Eastshare through without contesting every inch of the road. And they knew it, and their priests knew it.

Definitely, yes. That said, some people can persist in wishful thinking for a long, long while, and there's likely some Temple Loyalist sentiment in the Raven Lands that simply lost that argument. Granted, it's a sort of Temple "Loyalist" much like Charis still has that may not be down with the CoC exactly but would still get tortured to death by the Inquisition.

The Raven Lands' position means though that they can afford to indulge some wishful thinking and feel they can stay on a sort of fence - and the more ardent Reformists may feel a need to stick around home to keep an eye on any small minority of ardent Temple Loyalists who would do things extreme enough to make Clyntahn smile if they were given a fighting chance. Not being pushed does at least mean that they can adjust to rejecting the Temple over time, without the kinds of disturbances that have run through Corisande or Siddarmark and threaten Chisholm. (If not for the Sword of Schueler, Siddarmark and Silkiah may well have had the same experience for a while, but unlike the Raven Lands, they were never in a position to be able to carry that all the way to peaceful separation from the Temple.)

One had a feeling reading through that section where DE was negotiating with the Raven Lords that general sentiment was probably Reformist but not schismatic. However the semaphores getting the news back to Chisholm from Siddarmark ran through the Raven Lands. So news out of Siddarmark would probably have been generally known which would have hardened attitudes in the Raven Lands against the COGA. Then too, the way I read that section implies that the Bishop assigned there was probably Reformist which would have further reinforced those attitudes.

Don

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Hi Don,

Yup, the Raven Lords seemed very well informed on what was happening in Siddarmark.

Jeff, the best use of Raven Lord young men would be managing the caribou and snow lizards when they're not in combat, possibly beginning to create herds in Siddarmark that might improve Rollings and the other northern provinces economies.

NTM, the foreign experience might open some young conservative eyes to a larger world.

I think you're spot on, Louis R.; as to how many 'wild geese' would go the full mercenary route, including training at Maikelberg will be interesting to see, but I suspect a silver mark a day to handle caribou and snow lizard's with a half mark danger pay bonus might be more than enough for the majority of the Raven young men.

L

n7axw wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:*quote="Louis R"*Oh, I wouldn't think that they'd provide troops of any sort at this point. Mind you, I wouldn't rule out a handful of 'wild geese' going off on their own initiative; fighting for steady pay can be rather attractive for young fighting men when the raiding gets sparse.

The real point, though, is that that conservatism has pretty much been junked on the religious front, and easily enough that it probably wasn't at all general anymore. Their bridge to Zion was burned when they let Eastshare through without contesting every inch of the road. And they knew it, and their priests knew it.*/quote*
Definitely, yes. That said, some people can persist in wishful thinking for a long, long while, and there's likely some Temple Loyalist sentiment in the Raven Lands that simply lost that argument. Granted, it's a sort of Temple "Loyalist" much like Charis still has that may not be down with the CoC exactly but would still get tortured to death by the Inquisition.

The Raven Lands' position means though that they can afford to indulge some wishful thinking and feel they can stay on a sort of fence - and the more ardent Reformists may feel a need to stick around home to keep an eye on any small minority of ardent Temple Loyalists who would do things extreme enough to make Clyntahn smile if they were given a fighting chance. Not being pushed does at least mean that they can adjust to rejecting the Temple over time, without the kinds of disturbances that have run through Corisande or Siddarmark and threaten Chisholm. (If not for the Sword of Schueler, Siddarmark and Silkiah may well have had the same experience for a while, but unlike the Raven Lands, they were never in a position to be able to carry that all the way to peaceful separation from the Temple.)

One had a feeling reading through that section where DE was negotiating with the Raven Lords that general sentiment was probably Reformist but not schismatic. However the semaphores getting the news back to Chisholm from Siddarmark ran through the Raven Lands. So news out of Siddarmark would probably have been generally known which would have hardened attitudes in the Raven Lands against the COGA. Then too, the way I read that section implies that the Bishop assigned there was probably Reformist which would have further reinforced those attitudes.

Don

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

Yup, the Raven Lords seemed very well informed on what was happening in Siddarmark.

Jeff, the best use of Raven Lord young men would be managing the caribou and snow lizards when they're not in combat, possibly beginning to create herds in Siddarmark that might improve Rollings and the other northern provinces economies.

NTM, the foreign experience might open some young conservative eyes to a larger world.

I think you're spot on, Louis R.; as to how many 'wild geese' would go the full mercenary route, including training at Maikelberg will be interesting to see, but I suspect a silver mark a day to handle caribou and snow lizard's with a half mark danger pay bonus might be more than enough for the majority of the Raven young men.

L

I would think that the best way to cause resentment and discontent within the ranks of ANY group of people who have a warrior/raider tradition such as the youth of the Raven lands have is to tell them they are not good enough to participate in battles and are only good enough to handle the livestock. If any of those youth should volunteer, then they should be integrated within the ICA in the same way any other volunteer is and have the warrior arrogance eradicated from their personality the way that armed forces have been doing for centuries.