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Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by n7axw   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:08 am

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SciFi90 wrote:
dwileye13 wrote:Good thread
Thirsk has hit bottom and is waiting to re-enter the fray but has no motivation. The only thing that he sees he can accomplish is saving his men on the surviving prison ship from the Inquisition. I surmise that point from his anguish just prior to being shot. He is a loyalist but knows where the honor and truth are being upheld. His Church has forced him into dishonor and repudiation of his moral core. Our Merlin is walking into his nightmare with the answer to his prayers.
Any thoughts that Merlin hasn’t stepped across the Sejin/Demon line by showing up is ludicrous. He cannot be where he is by any evaluation. His presence in Siddar City is a matter of common knowledge. Thirsk is now in possession of dangerous information; Merlin is a Demon – proof positive. OR Merlin is going to share more (beyond the Thirsk family rescue) and leave it to The Earl to accept.
The interesting thing is, even if Thirsk wanted to tell the story of Merlin coming into his Parlor and sharing his whisky, saying his family was kidnapped / captured, then disappearing out the window or front door, who would believe the old drunk wounded spiritless Earl in the first place?
No the storyline needs Thirsk to rescue his own men from the Inquisition perhaps precipitating Dohlar dropping out of the Jihad. Easy enough to send someone else’s sailors off to the Punishment but being requested to send your own innocent people to be butchered and burnt may push Dohlar over the edge. Like Desnair not giving up Hennett, Duke Fern tried to deny the Charis Prisoners because Siddermark and EoC have their citizens as prisoners. The groundwork is there RFC will flesh out the details.
This will enrage Clyntahn and he will have ready solution
This leads up to my prediction of a couple of books ago, The alliance may end up defending Dohlar from the contingent of the Harchong Army marching south towards Hanth. Clyntahn enraged with Dohlar’s refusal to send the Dohlar sailors to the Inquisition could send order to that Army to destroy Dohlar in the Process.
Now that would be another can of worms, eh?
:mrgreen:

Mr. Weber is much too astute a scholar of the military to have even Clyntahn start another battlefront when already engaged against "heretics" in Siddarmark. I would doubt even the most vehement fanatic would open another front when losing on the one already engaged.


The trouble with this is that Clyntahn is already making decisions that are less than rational and well thought through. Having the Harchongians deal with Hanth and Dohlar is something that could appeal to him on reflex if his will is thwarted.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:20 pm

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n7axw wrote:
The trouble with this is that Clyntahn is already making decisions that are less than rational and well thought through. Having the Harchongians deal with Hanth and Dohlar is something that could appeal to him on reflex if his will is thwarted.

Don

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I am not sure I agree with your conclusion. Sure, Clyntahn will gravitate towards more direct control when presented with novel or unexpected situations. Not because his will is being thwarted, but because he is being confronted with situations that are ever more beyond his experience to deal with.

He knows squat about finances and military deployments and logistics. That ignorance will either force him to rely on others or force him to use the knowledge he does have to make decisions and rely on God to make the decision successful. Either option will tend to thwart his over arching goal and force him to make more decisions based on his own imperfect knowledge and rely even more on God. If he relies on others and they fail to offset Charis' massive industrial advantage, he will move towards relying on God. If he relies on his own ignorance and God and still fails, obviously that just means God is testing him but will eventually deliver victory to His stewards.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by Louis R   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:45 pm

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During the discussion of why Hennet was a head taller than he ought to have been, Duchairn reflects on the info coming from his own sources - specifically, that things must be even worse in Desnair than they were indicating - and it's clear that Trynair is also getting reports independently of the Inquisition. So both are working on developing their own sources.

However, they have 2 problems: first, the Inquisition can read their mail - it supervises, and files copies of, all official communications - so anything that Clyntahn can view as undermining him is contra-indicated. Second, it's always been clear that the Inquisition was the only branch of the Church apparatus that conducted undercover ops. Probably because it was the only branch that needed to, or cared whether people were hiding things. Even Treasury really only cared that people remit _enough_ of the tithes owing to meet its needs, peculation included. I suspect that the range and extent of those ops was _vastly_ expanded after Clyntahn took over, as the basic presumption shifted from heresy as a possibility to be watched for to heresy as a reality to be hunted down and rooted out. Clyntahn's partners would have signed off on it as they saw it providing them with better and more timely information in their own domains - and it's only in the last five years or so that they will have realised that he was heavily filtering what he shared, and couldn't be regarded as a complete, accurate or reliable source. It may even be that he only started doing it recently, once he decided that he could never _prove_ that something was rotten in the State of Charis and would have to manipulate the others into doing the right thing.

JeffEngel wrote:
Expert snuggler wrote:Wow that's a first-rate point.

Trynair should be getting lots of ground truth and outright espionage from the Church diplomats, in every realm where Merlin and OWL still allow espionage to operate. It's part of what diplomats are for.

Duchairn controls auditors in every loyal area who have authority to go over any books that might be used to conceal tithe-dodging, which means everything governmental, which means he's got information and the power to investigate ("What's this ledger entry for 'special projects', anyway?").

Maigwair is starting from scratch, but the smarter he is the more likely that he's telling liaison officers to ply their contacts with gifts and drinks.

And yet, we've seen very little evidence of Church intelligence networks other than the Inquisition's. Among my own predictions for HFQ, one place I definitely came up short was my expectation we WOULD see some evidence of it in there. (Maybe they're keeping it to themselves - maybe Trynair is trying to fade into the background is just because he knows the Church has got no firm secular allies anymore.)
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by n7axw   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:21 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
I am not sure I agree with your conclusion. Sure, Clyntahn will gravitate towards more direct control when presented with novel or unexpected situations. Not because his will is being thwarted, but because he is being confronted with situations that are ever more beyond his experience to deal with.

He knows squat about finances and military deployments and logistics. That ignorance will either force him to rely on others or force him to use the knowledge he does have to make decisions and rely on God to make the decision successful. Either option will tend to thwart his over arching goal and force him to make more decisions based on his own imperfect knowledge and rely even more on God. If he relies on others and they fail to offset Charis' massive industrial advantage, he will move towards relying on God. If he relies on his own ignorance and God and still fails, obviously that just means God is testing him but will eventually deliver victory to His stewards.


I think that things are simpler than this. Clyntahn is relying not on rationality but his gut which he seems to have confused with the will of God. The way he handled the situation with the Army of the Sylmahn for example, made no sense. How was Wyrshym supposed to protect the camps by squating in place with supply line cut off and starving to death? This is only one example. One could write an entire thesis on how convoluted Clyntahn's decision process has been. He has been Charis' best ally in the war simply due to his capacity for screwing up. All "relying on God" really is relative to Clyntahn is relying on his gut whether it makes any sense or not.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:41 pm

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Clyntahn wasn't looking to effectively lead the CoGA to victory. He relies on God to secure that ultimate outcome. Clyntahn was trying to comport the human effort to be consistent with what he believes God demands from humanity. So, it is better to try properly and lose than to find a more effective but unacceptable strategy/tactic and win.

That is his view on orthodoxy.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by n7axw   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:41 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Clyntahn wasn't looking to effectively lead the CoGA to victory. He relies on God to secure that ultimate outcome. Clyntahn was trying to comport the human effort to be consistent with what he believes God demands from humanity. So, it is better to try properly and lose than to find a more effective but unacceptable strategy/tactic and win.

That is his view on orthodoxy.


He has been perfectly willing to twist the proscriptions to a pretzel whenever it suits him; as he has said, "we'll do whatever it takes..." To claim to be observing orthodoxy, he would need to be consistant. In reality, he uses the language of orthodoxy, but orthodoxy becomes whatever suits him at the minute. He isn't depending on God; he is following his gut and has it confused with God.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:36 pm

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n7axw wrote:The trouble with this is that Clyntahn is already making decisions that are less than rational and well thought through. Having the Harchongians deal with Hanth and Dohlar is something that could appeal to him on reflex if his will is thwarted.


At the risk of Godwinning the thread...

Clyntahnn closely parallels Hitler's rise to power and descent into madness as his war increasingly goes against his vision of how it should go. There are also parallels to Stalin's purges and paranoia; the difference being that Stalin won his war and Hitler committed suicide rather than face defeat.

I doubt that Clyntahnn is a complete clone of Hitler, Stalin, Musolini, Pol Pot, or any of a dozen other dictators in RW history, but his circumstances really do mirror Hitler's to my eye.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by n7axw   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:03 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
n7axw wrote:The trouble with this is that Clyntahn is already making decisions that are less than rational and well thought through. Having the Harchongians deal with Hanth and Dohlar is something that could appeal to him on reflex if his will is thwarted.


At the risk of Godwinning the thread...

Clyntahnn closely parallels Hitler's rise to power and descent into madness as his war increasingly goes against his vision of how it should go. There are also parallels to Stalin's purges and paranoia; the difference being that Stalin won his war and Hitler committed suicide rather than face defeat.

I doubt that Clyntahnn is a complete clone of Hitler, Stalin, Musolini, Pol Pot, or any of a dozen other dictators in RW history, but his circumstances really do mirror Hitler's to my eye.


Agreed. The big difference between him and Hitler is that Hitler had better tools to do his killing. Both were completely convinced of their delusions. It just happens that Clyntahn's focuses around God.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by jeremyr   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:10 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Agreed. The big difference between him and Hitler is that Hitler had better tools to do his killing. Both were completely convinced of their delusions. It just happens that Clyntahn's focuses around God.

Don

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Hitler often used religion to justify his actions.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:48 am

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Hi Don,

Thank you, I've missed reading your posts as well.

I didn't mean to imply that Merlin would leave a com with Thirsk, as at least the same objections apply to any letter or memento left that the valet might see etc, rather that he would share one when he visited, which I think will be frequently over the next few month's.

You have a point dealing with the inquisition, but OWL ought to have identified many of the critical ones and once the FoG goes after them and their TL allies like Thorast, things could be a whole lot easier for the Dohlaran patriots, who being very secretive and mysterious, would be far better effective than foreign troops.

The reason I specified bolt cutters for the wyvern cages is precisely to save fingers and hands. :D

L


n7axw wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi guys,

Sorry, this is my first post in a couple month's due to internet and computer problems besides being busier than I'd like, but such is life.

I'd like to thank the very many many excellent comments throughout this thread for their insights, but make a few points of my own.

Thirsk's primary concerns are his family, his navy, and his country, and Merlin must deal with all of them, and I believe in that order.

I agree with those who feel Merlin must tell Thirsk his family is alive first, to be as forthright from the beginning as possible [unless his daughters insisted he wait etc], then given that Merlin can't leave any physical letter or memento from Thirsk's daughters or grandchildren behind, where it would be found by the valet or someone else before Thirsk woke up, even if it was in one of his pockets, and burning it immediately after reading in the fireplace is also contraindicated; it seems far more likely Merlin will haul out a com, explain as Thirsk already knows, that the ancient or early seijins had received archangel blessed machines to communicate with each other over long distances, and its called a 'com' for short.

If Thirsk asks where Merlin's came from, he can honestly answer the same place their's did.

Showing his daughters and their families alive, talking to him in real time, moving, etc from aboard Destiny [on the way back to Claw Island] would be the best antidote to Thirsk's binge drinking and depression; though Merlin might inject some anti- alcohol agents and inhibitors to help sober him up more quickly, so he wakes up feeling a lot better than in 5days.

I suspect Merlin would offer sanctuary at either the Tellesburg palace or cathedral after the oncoming hurricane season on Claw Island, and those comments regarding it being the safest place are spot on.

Once his concern for his family has been ameliorated, preserving his navy, which he knows is doomed, will be Thirsk's second priority.

Merlin doesn't have to make mysterious hints or describe the 'City' class ironclads; Thirsk knows the Dreadnought is a 3 year old design, having probably found the ship's hull plate etc; his nightmares have probably been filled with imagining what blue water versions of the coastal ironclads the ICN has come up with since, though none will prepare him for the KHVII's.

It'll be interesting if we read anymore from his report on the Dreadnought, or discussions with Maik or Zhwaigair.

The appearance of the two replacement Rottweilers soon will encourage caution by the RDN, but I can't help wondering if a stretched Rottweiler with a pair of double expansion engines and 1-5 days of coal could be quite useful, which might result from converting the last ones on the stocks, steaming mainly for battle.

HFQ has Howsmyn thinking a couple more month's would be good timing for the KHVII's back in August, and that they could reach the Gulf of Dohlar in 24 days refueling at Port Royal, so we might see them in action before the end of October, if not then surely in November, much too soon to miss out on encouraging Dohlar to ditch Clyntahn and the inquisition.

Since Ironhill got the word about the Mohryah Lode in August of last year, the EoC's financial constraints that reduced the KHVII's to only three initially has been eliminated, so I expect several more were quickly laid down, depending more on the number of large building slips available, thus the next batch has caught up with first so I won't be surprised if instead of 3 we have 6 or even 8 BB's greeting the RDN's western fleet [half or ~30 galleons?] sooner than most expect, with another 6-8 not that far behind.

Given the new steel works we've been hearing about since HFaF at Tellesburg, Maikelberg, and Lake Lyman, that are or were as big as Delthak, the steel shortage for all of the empire's projects ought to be alleviated rather soon.

Besides these, there are the steam powered colliers and freighters, troop ships and animal transports, that can be built much more quickly while carrying several thousand tons of cargo to keep up and supply them with the coal, food, ammunition and spare parts etc they need, NTM space for POW's.

Given the inner circle's interest in preserving Thirsk's power base, coming up with a plan that demonstrates how outclassed the RDN is, along with what's left of the rest of the Go4's navies, so the admiral is compelled to surrender to spare his men, seems the most likely plan.

How RFC accomplishes this will be fascinating.
I have my own ideas, but the odds are strongly against them being the same as his.

However, once the western RDN has been removed from play, I don't believe the KHVII's will immediately steam for Gorath Bay.

Rather, the semaphore communication nexus at Dairnyth needs to be taken out first; along with all the messenger wyvernries along both shores of the Bay of Bess, and the Mahthyw Passage, to reduce the potential alternate communications, courtesy of the seijin network; they don't have to kill the cute birdie analogs, just open the cages with bolt cutters and let them fly home. ;)

Cutting the semaphore links ought to at least double the time loop for messages between Zion and GC from around 14 hours to nearer 28 [given slower night transmission rates], quite aside from cutting most of Howard from Haven, while the longest internal Dohlaran semaphore messages would be about 4, after the Dohlaran government seizes its internal semaphore lines to protect them in the face of the erupting chaos.

Clyntahn may well recognize Thirsk is a greater threat than before, but if he stays quiet, his reputation might protect him for the short time left before things in Dohlar come apart; though the inquisition assassins would run afoul of the 'fist of god' [FoG] who 'missed' Thirsk thanks to Owl and Nahrmahn. ;)

The sharing of lists of Dohlaran agent inquisitors is a good suggestion, since SNARC's following each inquisitor as they reveal themselves ought to be pretty easy.

Kharmych and the other intendants and inquisitors may have plans and orders to take control if things get worse, which might include having Rahnyld IV abdicate with Thorast as regent, which might go badly and the inquisition blamed for killing the king that outrages the public on top of everything else and a general reaction against the Go4.

Then again, the 'FoG' might strike at the inquisition's leadership as well as pruning its rank and file before Thirsk and friends are ready, to preempt them, as directed by Nahrmahn, Nynian and OWL to decapitate their command and control.

The FoG has yet to be reported using mines, rifles and booby-traps, ie killing at a distance where there might also be civilian casualties; so Dohlar and GC might be firsts in that respect, but there would be many external observers of all this, thinking of their own situations, particularly in the Border States.

Sorry, this is too long already!

Hopefully more later today.

L



Hi Lyonheart,

I've missed your posting and hope to see more of your posts in the future.

For my own part, I would think that giving Thirsk a com would not be a good idea. It implies knowledge for which he has not been prepared and he is at heart very devout. Best to give him a letter from his daughters whose hand writing he would recognise along with the assurance that they are safe. The basic point would be to make him understand that the fate of his family need no longer factor into his decision making.

Otherwise, how Dohlar deals with the inquisition, given how closely they seem to have their thumb on things in Dohlar is a bit of a puzzler. We've been kicking around thoughts, but I wonder if finally the way it happens if when Dohlar collapses militarily from Hanth's pressure and/or the arrival of the ICNin Gorath Bay with the Charisians cleaning out the inquisitors..

Finally, wyverns "cute bird analogs??" More like oversized hawks or eagles. Those suckers Nahrman was breeding were probably big enough to carry pakages and could snip off fingers if not hands.

Don

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Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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