Machine Guns in Safehold

SciFi90 wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
It's been discussed elsewhere, but here's a quick rundown:

1) Logistics - It's been stated that cartridge production for existing firearms is barely keeping up with demand even when Charis had yet to fight any major battles with single shot and bolt action rifles yet. There's no way cartridge production would be able to continuously supply generally deployed full auto weapons.

2) Doctrine - There's been no need for full auto weapons yet and no one outside the Inner Circle has even conceived of it yet. Even those inside the Inner Circle are still thinking in terms of individually aimed shots. And the reason they think that is...

3) They aren't needed - Historically and in Safehold, the biggest killer of massed infantry HASN'T been fully automatic weapons. It's been artillery. And Charis and her allies are lavishly equipped with artillery and mortars firing explosive shells which has been doing most of the killing and breaking of enemy held positions.

As pointed out ammunition supply is the chief impediment to use of machine gins on Safehold. Whether Mr. Weber will write that artillery is sufficient to stop massed assault by Harchong armies remains to be seen. A better solution, perhaps, would be to interdict supplies of food and ammunition for the Harchongs. Food can only be stopped during delivery and storage in depots. Armaments can be reduced by interfering with delivery of required components and raw materials, as well as destruction of supply depots.
I wonder whether the gun-equipped shuttle used to destroy the Thirsk family carrying ship will be used on army supply depots.

If you want to throw another monkey wrench into the Church's logistics, you might want to introduce a form of naval mine. A "tipping" mine that rests on the bottom with a lever extending towards the surface of whatever canal it's in to be set off when a canal barge pushes on the lever, breaking an acid vial. It could be randomly sown and provided with anti-tamper devices. If you REALLY want to be sneaky, the "random" sowing can be near uber-othrodox towns so they face Clyntahn's wrath. Or limpet mines set on lock gates so that they are set off when the lock opens.

doug941 wrote:If you want to throw another monkey wrench into the Church's logistics, you might want to introduce a form of naval mine.

Mines are something that Charis doesn't need and, more importantly, doesn't need to give the CoGA any ideas. The Spar Torpedo the Dohlorans came up with is bad enough.

The Winchester M1897 pump shotgun did well from before WW I and up thorugh WW II as a trench weapon and used for various clearing and close combat situations. I have used one for deer and it is perfectly happy with either slugs or buckshot. The one I have was my grandfathers which my father used on deer as well. Rugged, does have a hammer but you can both cock and uncock the hammer soundlessly when needed- don't want to alarm the deer:) Not a dam thing you can do about the sound of the action working---but then, intimidation is a potent weapon and once you have taken that first shot, action noise isnt going to make a dam bit of difference.
Standard .12 gage. Nice for clearing trenches, alleys, houses, boarding ships, and guarding prisoners.

Winchester was making them with extended barrels, ventilated metal barrel shrouds and a mount for a bayonet.
Later the WW II production went to the Winchester Model 12. with short barrel.



If you are going to produce a Gatling gun, they did quite well in .45-70 using black powder. The major drawback- other than the logistics for ammunition- is the weight. For example, Custer had some with him but given that there was nothing like roads in the area he was traveling, the horses and wagons for the guns and their ammunition constantly slowed the column and never got into the battles. From fixed positions, like shipboard mounts or fortifications, they would work quite nicely once the enemy got into something closer than canister range on the artillery. So make the Gatling to used the same cartridge as does the magazine loaded Charis rifle. That was the logic driving the rounds used in the Gatlings.

Weird Harold wrote:

doug941 wrote:If you want to throw another monkey wrench into the Church's logistics, you might want to introduce a form of naval mine.

Mines are something that Charis doesn't need and, more importantly, doesn't need to give the CoGA any ideas. The Spar Torpedo the Dohlorans came up with is bad enough.

Giving the Church ideas would be where the anti-tamper devices come in. A limpet with a trigger in the belly so that if you pull it loose, it goes off. To arm it, you pull a safety wire. The tip mine would have a somewhat similar trigger. To retrieve the mine you would need to find them in the first place, then send in the divers. One mine every 30-40 miles makes that difficult. The idea behind using the mines would be more loose interdiction than close blockade.

doug941 wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Mines are something that Charis doesn't need and, more importantly, doesn't need to give the CoGA any ideas. The Spar Torpedo the Dohlorans came up with is bad enough.

Giving the Church ideas would be where the anti-tamper devices come in.

The church doesn't necessarily have to capture an intact example to get ideas. They've got a fair number of smart people working for them - in this case, merely being nudged into *thinking* about naval mines, especially with evidence of their effectiveness and that the EoC considers them worth developing and deploying, is altogether too likely to result in unpleasant developments from the EoC's point of view.

And in this case, the proposed use is not particularly worth the risk. The only advantage of these over simply wrecking the canal itself is that the mine will take a single canal barge with it when it blows, and one barge is completely insignificant next to the logistical disruption of rendering the canal unusable. Just blow the canal locks with conventional gunpowder (or Lewisite nowadays, I guess) demolitions and don't waste your time and effort on specialized mines.

Basically, the potential benefits of mines are *far* outweighed by the drawbacks if anything nudges the church into thinking about developing corresponding weapons, given the vast disparity in the importance of seaborne transport between the two sides. Pretty much the only waterborne transport the CoG uses at all these days are canals, and those can already be disrupted in vastly simpler ways.

SciFi90 wrote:Whether Mr. Weber will write that artillery is sufficient to stop massed assault by Harchong armies remains to be seen.

Mr. Weber knows his history. I'm sure he knows what I said about artillery being the biggest killer on the battlefield. And given how much artillery was used in HFQ to roll over Church positions, I think he's subtly depicting just that.

evilauthor wrote:

SciFi90 wrote:Whether Mr. Weber will write that artillery is sufficient to stop massed assault by Harchong armies remains to be seen.

Mr. Weber knows his history. I'm sure he knows what I said about artillery being the biggest killer on the battlefield. And given how much artillery was used in HFQ to roll over Church positions, I think he's subtly depicting just that.

With the exception of the Battle of Thesmar and the Kyplyngyr Forest, artillery has been the decisive factor in all the battles we've seen fought so far. No reason to believe that's going to change...

Don

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n7axw wrote:

evilauthor wrote:Mr. Weber knows his history. I'm sure he knows what I said about artillery being the biggest killer on the battlefield. And given how much artillery was used in HFQ to roll over Church positions, I think he's subtly depicting just that.

With the exception of the Battle of Thesmar and the Kyplyngyr Forest, artillery has been the decisive factor in all the battles we've seen fought so far. No reason to believe that's going to change...

Don

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So... not so subtle?

evilauthor wrote:
So... not so subtle?

About as subtle as a six inch rifled cannon can be...

Don

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Infantry mortars are currently serving about the same function as machine guns would.