Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

Expert snuggler wrote:Wow that's a first-rate point.

Trynair should be getting lots of ground truth and outright espionage from the Church diplomats, in every realm where Merlin and OWL still allow espionage to operate. It's part of what diplomats are for.

Duchairn controls auditors in every loyal area who have authority to go over any books that might be used to conceal tithe-dodging, which means everything governmental, which means he's got information and the power to investigate ("What's this ledger entry for 'special projects', anyway?").

Maigwair is starting from scratch, but the smarter he is the more likely that he's telling liaison officers to ply their contacts with gifts and drinks.

n7axw wrote:What is interesting to me about this is that the longer the war has gone on, the more Clyntahn and the inquisition have assumed control and the more dependent the COGA is on the inquisition to carry out basic functions. In HFQ we've seen the inquisition start to crack. I find myself thinking that could end up impacting the COGA's ability to continue the Jihad.

Don

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PeterZ wrote:@CJK

You miss the point. The King Haaralds allow Dohlar to recognize that the jihad was launched in error. That point will allow other nations to also opt out. Silkiah and Delferahk anyone?

To repeat myself. The KH VIIs are so innovative that if they violate the proscriptions, they do so with direct demonic influence. That means God would have to act to counter that influence. The only divine influence anyone knows about is the return of the seijin and they serve Charis. It follows that the Charisian innovations are not influenced by demons. It further follows that those innovations do not offend God. The Inquisition's claim that Charis was in rebellion against the CoGA when they denounced the CoGA attack in the name of the KotTL was sophistry. The Church attacked Charis and Charis defended itself. The Jihad was unjustified. So leaving the jihad is not a betrayal of God, but a recognition of the inquisition's error.

SciFi90 wrote:

n7axw wrote:What is interesting to me about this is that the longer the war has gone on, the more Clyntahn and the inquisition have assumed control and the more dependent the COGA is on the inquisition to carry out basic functions. In HFQ we've seen the inquisition start to crack. I find myself thinking that could end up impacting the COGA's ability to continue the Jihad.

Don

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Mr. Weber may be setting the stage for Clyntahn to take over control of Army of God operations, and his fanaticism; ("God will not permit the Church forces to lose!") to cause issuance of orders that are either impossible to carry out, or disastrous to the various "armies" so ordered.

CJK wrote:Also worth considering is the actions of Kau-Yung (plus his followers) and its consequences, namely the creation of the Book of Schueler and Chihiro. To start with they were made without Bedard overseeing the process, NTM the Chihiro book by itself introduces the concept of fallibility of archangels by itself. The original setup was made to be unbreakable, something which cannot now be put to the test as the later 2 books harm that straitjacket quite a bit.

IMO it is not an accident that the order of Schueler (and Jwo-Jeng) has consolidated power so heavily over time. Setting up a secret police with power over the other priesthood orders usually has that outcome. Or that thus far nearly all the actions which has created and nurtured the schism come from this book. I get the feeling that either the author made it that way or was too consumed with crushing the command crew rebellion after Kau-Yung's death.

n7axw wrote:What is interesting to me about this is that the longer the war has gone on, the more Clyntahn and the inquisition have assumed control and the more dependent the COGA is on the inquisition to carry out basic functions. In HFQ we've seen the inquisition start to crack. I find myself thinking that could end up impacting the COGA's ability to continue the Jihad.

Don

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dwileye13 wrote:Good thread
Thirsk has hit bottom and is waiting to re-enter the fray but has no motivation. The only thing that he sees he can accomplish is saving his men on the surviving prison ship from the Inquisition. I surmise that point from his anguish just prior to being shot. He is a loyalist but knows where the honor and truth are being upheld. His Church has forced him into dishonor and repudiation of his moral core. Our Merlin is walking into his nightmare with the answer to his prayers.
Any thoughts that Merlin hasn’t stepped across the Sejin/Demon line by showing up is ludicrous. He cannot be where he is by any evaluation. His presence in Siddar City is a matter of common knowledge. Thirsk is now in possession of dangerous information; Merlin is a Demon – proof positive. OR Merlin is going to share more (beyond the Thirsk family rescue) and leave it to The Earl to accept.
The interesting thing is, even if Thirsk wanted to tell the story of Merlin coming into his Parlor and sharing his whisky, saying his family was kidnapped / captured, then disappearing out the window or front door, who would believe the old drunk wounded spiritless Earl in the first place?
No the storyline needs Thirsk to rescue his own men from the Inquisition perhaps precipitating Dohlar dropping out of the Jihad. Easy enough to send someone else’s sailors off to the Punishment but being requested to send your own innocent people to be butchered and burnt may push Dohlar over the edge. Like Desnair not giving up Hennett, Duke Fern tried to deny the Charis Prisoners because Siddermark and EoC have their citizens as prisoners. The groundwork is there RFC will flesh out the details.
This will enrage Clyntahn and he will have ready solution
This leads up to my prediction of a couple of books ago, The alliance may end up defending Dohlar from the contingent of the Harchong Army marching south towards Hanth. Clyntahn enraged with Dohlar’s refusal to send the Dohlar sailors to the Inquisition could send order to that Army to destroy Dohlar in the Process.
Now that would be another can of worms, eh?

PeterZ wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:It does have the problem that (1) it runs counter to the Writ and the general conservatism of it, particularly to do with technology, and (2) it makes Shan-wei's lures of forbidden knowledge and rejecting Langhorne's teachings under the guise of benefiting oneself and one's people sound like God's plan, so the War Against the Fallen was, in effect, won by the bad guys. That's a painful lot to swallow, even in the face of reality strongly suggesting it may have a point.

But yeah, it would certainly have that much going for it, and reality can sometimes make a dent in religious belief - usually by ushering it out of the way.

There's another theological option to consider though - Clyntahn's suicide cult reading of the Writ. On it, angelic intervention comes eventually, but Safehold will be tempted sorely before that comes. It will be tempted by the alleged sins of the Vicarate into rebellion and apostacy; it will be tempted by Shan-wei's lures, appealing to fallen man's weakness and "better nature"; it will appeal to the sheer desire to live and knuckle under to heretics triumphant on the battlefield. It may well go all the way until Safehold consists of a world of heretics marching on a small, faithful to the last holdout in Zion led by Langhorne's sole true heir, Zhaspyr Clyntahn, expecting fully that nothing but a miracle can save them... when at last the Rakurai cleanse God's world of the unbeliever, Langhorne and the Archangels return in glory, and those few - living or martyred - who never, ever let go his charge are rewarded for their absolute faith in Him.

That one is a mighty stern and demanding theology. It's not going to reveal itself in the world til the very end, but it's a fair reading of the Writ and it's one to motivate fighting on no matter what.

Indeed your alternative theological view has its attractions to the sufficiently faithful and only to the sufficiently faithful. The key problem is that the Writ also requires that God's children act as he would have them act. The CoGA is a religion of works not faith and faith alone. That is the sine qua non of the Inquisition's justification. Whatever the inquisition does to foster compliance to the Writ as it defines compliance is justifiable. Why God's children comply is not as important as that they do comply.

That means that to encourage people to sit back and let God save us all is anathema to the theological foundation of the Inquisition. Human salvation requires humanity to act and earn that salvation. Salvation for humanity needs the Inquisition to guide human activity so that it earns salvation from God. Just as God acted through His archangels to bring about creation, He acts through His Church to prepare humanity to receive His salvation. Letting God do all the work is tantamount to saying their entire raison d'etre does not exist. If human action is unnecessary to human salvation, then the fundamental task of the Inquisition is unnecessary.