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Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?

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Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by dobriennm   » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:53 pm

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On page 587 (or so), there's an Inner Circle discussion going on about the new rockets in addition to how the additional breech-loading artillery are going to restore some of their advantages.

Then it's mentioned that "if Nahrmahn's little brainstorm about fire control works out anywhere near as well as he keeps assuring us it will, we ought to be able to cope with anything the Temple Boys come up with over the winter."

So considering they already have a system for controlling fire direction (spotters/signalmen/heliographs/rockets), what sort of additional fire control is possible??

I ask because I can think of Naval fire control systems without electricity, but I'm not sure what's possible or better than existing with regards to land-based artillery

Ground rules for Speculation
:evil: No electricity of any kind!!! :evil:
Only for land-based artillery.

So, any ideas??
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:29 pm

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Not my field, but rangefinders and slide rules come to mind.
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by dobriennm   » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:48 pm

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Maybe some sort of stereo-optic rangefinder using some of the angle-glasses from the navy to increase the baseline to 10-20 feet between the separated optics? (twist a dial to align the images from each separated spyglass and read the range off?) (I haven't run any numbers so I don't know what kind of separation you would need to get reasonable accuracy out 5 to 10 miles :o - and whether that would be a reasonable upper limit)

Plus the other part of fire control is getting range and bearing to the gun crew quickly - is there some improvement Nahrmahn has thought of there?
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by niethil   » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:10 pm

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If it's supposed to help 'during the winter' and it's only at the level of a 'brainstorm', then it can't be anything big : not a new kind of gun nor any other sort of weapon. There wouldn't be enough time to feed it into the innovation laundry, production and deployment process.
It must be either an organisational innovation (which can be adopted without additional hardware), something small, or something that you need only in small number to make a difference.

Com devices seem unlikely, since it would necessarily involve either transportation means or some extensive hardware (and without electricity, that seems tricky). On the other hand, since we are talking defensive, presumably fixed positions ('cope with anything the Temple Boys come up with over the winter', I am guessing, doesn't refer to what the imperial army is preparing to do unto the 'Temple Boys'), voicepipes might be possible ... but expensive. Otherwise ... bicycles ? Why would that be applied specifically to fire control ?

A range finder would probably fit the bill. Coincidence, stereoscopic or stadiametric range finders are all possible. All of them were used during WWII for various purposes. Dimensions are about 2 meters for common models, I guess ? All of them can potentially be applied to geodesic measurements in civilian engineering as well.

Another possibility is something coming out of Mayklyn's work on mechanics to help compute trajectories. I don't remember whether the Charisian artillery units already have that.
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'Oh, oh' he said in English. Evidently, he had completely mastered that language.
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by saber964   » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:31 pm

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The last generation of the USN's range finders and keepers were mechanical analog computers and used no electricity. These computers were very accurate IIRC they could fire a round into a target 100 ft across at a range of 15 miles and place a 9 round broadside within a football field at the same range. When the USN recommissioned the USS New Jersey the USN had to replace all of its targets after one gunex at San Clementie Is. Gunnery range according to one story I heard the New Jersey direct hit on a M48 tank and the largest chunk they could ID was breach of the main gun.
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by chrisd   » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:19 pm

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Does it have to be some physical "gadget"?

Could it be something conceptual, such as "Time on Target" firing sequences?
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by dobriennm   » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:32 pm

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Don't think it has to be a physical gadget, maybe a combination of already present gadgets plus some "system" of coordination.

The biggest part, to my mind, is the coordination part. I think of a "fire control" system as something that gets the targeting info (at least distance and bearing from the gun) from the observation point to the gun itself and calculates elevation, bearing and fuse setting so that all the gun crew has to do is apply those settings to the gun and fire.

The navy analog fire control computer idea might be a starting point. Turn a few dials and get a solution if you can get the observational data in.

And maybe you can use that to get "time on Target" firing sequence for a more devastating effect.

But it's the coordination part/information transfer part that puzzles me. It's easier on a ship with potentially a fixed observation point having an analog "computer/slide rule" passing info over a voice tube to a fixed gun mount. But how do you do something like that on land where positions are not fixed between observation points and the guns except for a "set piece" battle or a static battle front?

I'm assuming Charis/Siddmark are trying to do a more fluid/mobile type of warfare.

That's why I'm puzzled by this one. I'm not familiar enough with historical fire control for land gunnery to see how they could do better coordination than they already do.
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:41 pm

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Hi ChrisD,

Excellent point!

From the textev, it seems more a technique than any new equipment, unless it can be fashioned from within each allied army's existing resources.

We have some indications of 'time on target' techniques already existing in HFQ from the examples provided by BGV and DE, and indirect fire is already rather advanced, so wooden slide rules are already a given.

Analog computers are not something one whips up in the field, especially by a 19th technology society, so Nahrmahn's idea is something less than that, perhaps some obscure fire control technique that's less familiar to us old redlegs and bluelegs.

It could be a improvement in observation, but balloons have been ruled out for blasphemy reasons.

A wagon based elevating tower might be another possible.

Other suggestions?

L


chrisd wrote:Does it have to be some physical "gadget"?

Could it be something conceptual, such as "Time on Target" firing sequences?
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by Hildum   » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:57 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi ChrisD,

A wagon based elevating tower might be another possible.

Other suggestions?

L


chrisd wrote:Does it have to be some physical "gadget"?

Could it be something conceptual, such as "Time on Target" firing sequences?


Do they have the rate of fire and carriages for MRSI? On the other hand, the computation complexity might be too high for this, although if it can be planned in advance this might not be an issue.
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Re: Speculation for Nahrmahn' Little Brainstorm?
Post by lyonheart   » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:04 am

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Hi Hildum,

Good idea, but I believe MRSI requires faster, more sophisticated recoil systems than what those who just got them working in the last couple of years could handle.

Nahrmahn's fire control improvement may involve some twist on what they already do, possibly something we're already giving them credit for, to prevent or preempt Go4 rocket avalanches.

I learned 3 or 4 indirect fire methods in ROTC for both mortars and artillery, besides the artillery's preferred slide rules, then plastic as opposed to the WW2 cherry wood types.

The ICA artillery already has a considerable range advantage over the Go4's, but responding to a rocket volley after its begun is far too late; given the 2664 rockets were all launched in 19 seconds, that means almost 4 times the rate as the 18 per half second in the textev.

The first snippets next spring may answer our questions.

L


chrisd wrote:Does it have to be some physical "gadget"?

Could it be something conceptual, such as "Time on Target" firing sequences?


Do they have the rate of fire and carriages for MRSI? On the other hand, the computation complexity might be too high for this, although if it can be planned in advance this might not be an issue.[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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