Honorverse ramblings and musings

Citha I think you are underestimating solly arrogance.

even when the junction was first found they were the big kid on the block. NO-ONE would dare ague with them, it just couldn't happen.

so its not a matter of not seeing miltary benefits as much as the steel hard belief that no-one would ever dare attack them. this is when the league was still expanding peacefully. by the time they started forcibly adding worlds the junction was already too heavily defended to make an attempt to take it practical given the contacts the manties had with Beowulf and other members of the league.

Dauntless wrote:Citha I think you are underestimating solly arrogance.

even when the junction was first found they were the big kid on the block. NO-ONE would dare ague with them, it just couldn't happen.

so its not a matter of not seeing miltary benefits as much as the steel hard belief that no-one would ever dare attack them. this is when the league was still expanding peacefully. by the time they started forcibly adding worlds the junction was already too heavily defended to make an attempt to take it practical given the contacts the manties had with Beowulf and other members of the league.

Indeed. Solarians don't care about conquering everything in sight. Their aggression was limited to the predatory OFS which relied on the smaller half of the League Navy, which in turn relied on the larger half.

Has OFS been challenged? Certainly, but it had sufficient forces to quietly roll over its victims, occasionally calling upon FF and the Marines for assistance. Frontier Fleet hasn't been opposed for some time - Mesan Navy ships were unwilling to open fire on Roszak's flotilla, despite outgunning them.

The last time anyone really stood up to the Sollies was the Battle of Farley's Crossing, which appeared to demonstrate overwhelming Solarian superiority. Once SLN doctrine became universally known as well as the sheer weight of their battle wall, nobody was going to poke them with a stick and they could rely on the threat of force, rather than force itself.

Until New Tuscany. Byng unquestionably fucked up, but all the Sollies suddenly could think about was the damage to their prestige - they had to prove to themselves and everyone else that however right or wrong Manticore was, nobody is allowed to act in such a fashion towards the League without consequences.

And until New Tuscany, nobody had done anything meriting such a response from the SL, because they knew what would happen if they did. So the Sollies had no military threats to worry about.

munroburton wrote:

Dauntless wrote:Citha I think you are underestimating solly arrogance.

even when the junction was first found they were the big kid on the block. NO-ONE would dare ague with them, it just couldn't happen.

so its not a matter of not seeing miltary benefits as much as the steel hard belief that no-one would ever dare attack them. this is when the league was still expanding peacefully. by the time they started forcibly adding worlds the junction was already too heavily defended to make an attempt to take it practical given the contacts the manties had with Beowulf and other members of the league.

Indeed. Solarians don't care about conquering everything in sight. Their aggression was limited to the predatory OFS which relied on the smaller half of the League Navy, which in turn relied on the larger half.

Has OFS been challenged? Certainly, but it had sufficient forces to quietly roll over its victims, occasionally calling upon FF and the Marines for assistance. Frontier Fleet hasn't been opposed for some time - Mesan Navy ships were unwilling to open fire on Roszak's flotilla, despite outgunning them.

The last time anyone really stood up to the Sollies was the Battle of Farley's Crossing, which appeared to demonstrate overwhelming Solarian superiority. Once SLN doctrine became universally known as well as the sheer weight of their battle wall, nobody was going to poke them with a stick and they could rely on the threat of force, rather than force itself.

Until New Tuscany. Byng unquestionably fucked up, but all the Sollies suddenly could think about was the damage to their prestige - they had to prove to themselves and everyone else that however right or wrong Manticore was, nobody is allowed to act in such a fashion towards the League without consequences.

And until New Tuscany, nobody had done anything meriting such a response from the SL, because they knew what would happen if they did. So the Sollies had no military threats to worry about.

****** *

Dauntless wrote:
Citha I think you are underestimating solly arrogance.

Quite possible, I won't argue it. But I will write on it "Perhaps I've overestimated Solly common sense" on the towel before I throw it in. I agree with everyone that the League wasn't so corrupt during those days. Corruption is like an open wound that has to fester before it oozes puss. I can imagine a League early on with officers that commanded the 'little SD that could' which is why I couldn't believe they overlooked the importance of the junctions.

Your following points are exactly why the SLN could have seized the junctions early on -- w/o much of a fuss. And even if there was a fuss -- when they were only a 400-lb gorilla the RMN really was just an upstart, with NO knockout punch. Failing to claim the junctions was just plain stupid and shortsighted.

I agree that they didn't care. I agree on the reasons. I'm just saying that the parents of all of their dead and soon to be dead should be told "Your sons and daughters died because long ago... we were just plain stupid mam."

After all, what happens when comes the next Farley's Crossing disguised as a Grand Alliance Trojan horse? But not over the hyper wall, but through the junctions that IBM overlooked and let go to Microsoft's CEO.

I was wondering if maybe an opportunity had been missed to do a lot of damage control regarding Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet.

I thought of how well Elizabeth was at managing it for Honor -- with all of her political maneuverings. I wonder if both Elizabeth and Eloise could have used the aftermath of the Second Battle of Manticore on certain key ex-Havenites' part in helping to save Manty bacon and shore up Havenite-Manticoran relations. A masterful campaign dujour could have become the pièce de résistance on Haven-wide HD on their behalf. To at least test the waters of public opinion.

A positive dichotomous spin on propaganda.

Does anyone think their Havenite reputations can rise from the ashes as did the Republic?

cthia wrote:

Dauntless wrote:
Citha I think you are underestimating solly arrogance.

Quite possible, I won't argue it. But I will write on it "Perhaps I've overestimated Solly common sense" on the towel before I throw it in. I agree with everyone that the League wasn't so corrupt during those days. Corruption is like an open wound that has to fester before it oozes puss. I can imagine a League early on with officers that commanded the 'little SD that could' which is why I couldn't believe they overlooked the importance of the junctions.

Your following points are exactly why the SLN could have seized the junctions early on -- w/o much of a fuss. And even if there was a fuss -- when they were only a 400-lb gorilla the RMN really was just an upstart, with NO knockout punch. Failing to claim the junctions was just plain stupid and shortsighted.

I agree that they didn't care. I agree on the reasons. I'm just saying that the parents of all of their dead and soon to be dead should be told "Your sons and daughters died because long ago... we were just plain stupid mam."

After all, what happens when comes the next Farley's Crossing disguised as a Grand Alliance Trojan horse? But not over the hyper wall, but through the junctions that IBM overlooked and let go to Microsoft's CEO.

Cthia, you've missed it. The SL DID try to get the junctions over the years, just in a genteel, diplomatic way.

Until Manticore turned them toward the threat of Haven, Erewhon was a full SL "Partner" world - 1 step away from full member status. The SL sold them DNs to keep them happy and never set OFS on them to rob them blind - they were 90% of the way to signing on the dotted line for full membership when Haven's threat (and some special ops and political maneuvering by Manticore) pulled them away from the SL just before the 1st Havenite war. That's right, Erewhon threw away SL membership to fight the Havenite threat.

As for Manticore - where do you think Manticore got the designs for it's BBs - (hint) they didn't draw them up themselves. That's right - they were modern Solarian designs when built. The SLN's been trying to butter Manticore up for years - even allowing Manticore enough pull to get it's sector arms embargo in place against Haven.

We never got to see it, but dollars for donuts, I bet the SL came forward with an offer for closer relations every 5 years or so (or every management changeout, whichever came first) for the last 300 years. Just because Manticore didn't become a member of the SL, doesn't mean it wasn't offered.

cthia wrote:

Dauntless wrote:
Citha I think you are underestimating solly arrogance.

Quite possible, I won't argue it. But I will write on it "Perhaps I've overestimated Solly common sense" on the towel before I throw it in. I agree with everyone that the League wasn't so corrupt during those days. Corruption is like an open wound that has to fester before it oozes puss. I can imagine a League early on with officers that commanded the 'little SD that could' which is why I couldn't believe they overlooked the importance of the junctions.

Your following points are exactly why the SLN could have seized the junctions early on -- w/o much of a fuss. And even if there was a fuss -- when they were only a 400-lb gorilla the RMN really was just an upstart, with NO knockout punch. Failing to claim the junctions was just plain stupid and shortsighted.

I agree that they didn't care. I agree on the reasons. I'm just saying that the parents of all of their dead and soon to be dead should be told "Your sons and daughters died because long ago... we were just plain stupid mam."

After all, what happens when comes the next Farley's Crossing disguised as a Grand Alliance Trojan horse? But not over the hyper wall, but through the junctions that IBM overlooked and let go to Microsoft's CEO.

Theemile wrote:Cthia, you've missed it. The SL DID try to get the junctions over the years, just in a genteel, diplomatic way.

Until Manticore turned them toward the threat of Haven, Erewhon was a full SL "Partner" world - 1 step away from full member status. The SL sold them DNs to keep them happy and never set OFS on them to rob them blind - they were 90% of the way to signing on the dotted line for full membership when Haven's threat (and some special ops and political maneuvering by Manticore) pulled them away from the SL just before the 1st Havenite war. That's right, Erewhon threw away SL membership to fight the Havenite threat.

As for Manticore - where do you think Manticore got the designs for it's BBs - (hint) they didn't draw them up themselves. That's right - they were modern Solarian designs when built. The SLN's been trying to butter Manticore up for years - even allowing Manticore enough pull to get it's sector arms embargo in place against Haven.

We never got to see it, but dollars for donuts, I bet the SL came forward with an offer for closer relations every 5 years or so (or every management changeout, whichever came first) for the last 300 years. Just because Manticore didn't become a member of the SL, doesn't mean it wasn't offered.

Thanks for the info Theemile, now I'm not so astounded by complete Solly ignorance.

About those designs, that's news to me. I know that the LAC platform was a Solly design, though the RMN shot a dose of steroids into it. You say that BBs were a Solly design and I'm going to assume that Sollies designed the first SDs.

Is the only somewhat new platform the Haven Q-ship? Or is that not new either? Is there a totally Haven sector platform?

What if the MAlign developed a better method of delivery of its nanites? Instead of a spray that has to be inhaled, what about a version that delivers its effective payload through a liquid vector -- introduced simply by contaminating a water system? Something similar could be what's heading Beowulf's way.

cthia wrote:What if the MAlign developed a better method of delivery of its nanites? Instead of a spray that has to be inhaled, what about a version that delivers its effective payload through a liquid vector -- introduced simply by contaminating a water system? Something similar could be what's heading Beowulf's way.

The Assassin Nanites are keyed to a specific person's DNA; The MAlign would have to develop a more generalized Assassin Nanite or some other Nano-weapon to use it the way you suggest. Simple poison or bio-engineered disease would be easier and probably more effective.

cthia wrote:Thanks for the info Theemile, now I'm not so astounded by complete Solly ignorance.

About those designs, that's news to me. I know that the LAC platform was a Solly design, though the RMN shot a dose of steroids into it. You say that BBs were a Solly design and I'm going to assume that Sollies designed the first SDs.

Is the only somewhat new platform the Haven Q-ship? Or is that not new either? Is there a totally Haven sector platform?

Yes, there are. CLACs and the pod-layer BCPs and SDPs.

and the modern LACs.

no solly would have dreamed of creating anything like a Shrike!

Yes technically they are not a new type of warship but given that the only thing it has in common with a pre-shrike LAC is that it has impellers I think it is safe to class it as a new platform.

it was certainly as radically different to any prior LAC the same way as a SD(P) was radically new and more powerful then a pre-pod SD