Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

Not untrue, certainly, but incomplete: his conclusion that "demon" isn't merely a convenient smear but an accurate description for Merlin & Co. seems as genuine as it was reluctant. I would say that there are _no_ non-believers currently in Zion. [OTOH, the number who no longer believe that the Church serves God is likely much, much higher than Clyntahn or Rayno imagine, or even try to imagine.] Rayno's belief is more along the lines that the Church's mission is to remain as it has become: God's will for the Church can be read from its history. The delusion that one sits at the pinnacle of human development is a common one among those possessed of even moderate wealth and power.

JeffEngel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The answer to my original dichotomy appears to be Clyntahn is a true believer. He believes his understanding of the Writ is shared by God.

I will bet dollars to donuts this is the reason that moved Rayno to work with The Fist of God. I believe that Rayno's fundamental conservatism intensely dislikes the changes Clyntahn's actions are forcing on not just the Church but society as a whole.

Rayno helped Clyntahn win the election because Rayno saw that sincere belief in orthodoxy and thought it mirrored his own. He finds that recent events have isolated key differences that make Clyntahn a existential threat to all he holds dear.

That Rayno is working with the Fist of God is mightily speculative - putting it mildly; jaw-droppingly implausible would be my frank way of putting it. Stopping the Fist of God is Rayno's primary project these days. It's undermining the control of the Vicarate the Inquisition has, and certainly isn't going to be sympathetic with keeping the Harchongese serfs in line.

And Rayno isn't particularly a true believer - he's a pure power operator, the half of the Clyntahn/Rayno team that keeps it effectively engaged with reality. Orthodoxy, for Rayno, is a delightful tool for keeping the boot on serfs' necks and maintaining and advancing his own position.

Louis R wrote:Not untrue, certainly, but incomplete: his conclusion that "demon" isn't merely a convenient smear but an accurate description for Merlin & Co. seems as genuine as it was reluctant. I would say that there are _no_ non-believers currently in Zion. [OTOH, the number who no longer believe that the Church serves God is likely much, much higher than Clyntahn or Rayno imagine, or even try to imagine.] Rayno's belief is more along the lines that the Church's mission is to remain as it has become: God's will for the Church can be read from its history. The delusion that one sits at the pinnacle of human development is a common one among those possessed of even moderate wealth and power.

Mighty convenient too.

I think the true believer tag is intended to indicate something more than simple belief - everyone outside the Inner Circle on Safehold has every reason to believe the Writ is historically and scientifically entirely accurate. Mere belief would take that as a simple matter of fact; true belief comes from the gut, makes you do remarkable things, it's belief with teeth in it. (I don't pretend that the terms are ideal choices, but they fit specific usage.)

Anything that Rayno feels about the Church that takes a single step beyond mere belief just is, as you say, about the importance of the Church and the status quo.

Jeff, we don't know what Rayno believes with the exception that the changes forced upon the MHoGaA needs to be resisted. Of course my assertion is highly speculative. I just find the lack of text insight into this one key character suggestive that still waters run deep. That and it isn't what readers don't know that surprise them but what they think they know and are wrong that truly usher in surprise.

Sticking a tongue out at a mirror and folding a letter with meticulous care are clues RFC places in text. They are easily missed. Especially since the description was the only trivial gesture RFC describes for Rayno.

JeffEngel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The answer to my original dichotomy appears to be Clyntahn is a true believer. He believes his understanding of the Writ is shared by God.

I will bet dollars to donuts this is the reason that moved Rayno to work with The Fist of God. I believe that Rayno's fundamental conservatism intensely dislikes the changes Clyntahn's actions are forcing on not just the Church but society as a whole.

Rayno helped Clyntahn win the election because Rayno saw that sincere belief in orthodoxy and thought it mirrored his own. He finds that recent events have isolated key differences that make Clyntahn a existential threat to all he holds dear.

That Rayno is working with the Fist of God is mightily speculative - putting it mildly; jaw-droppingly implausible would be my frank way of putting it. Stopping the Fist of God is Rayno's primary project these days. It's undermining the control of the Vicarate the Inquisition has, and certainly isn't going to be sympathetic with keeping the Harchongese serfs in line.

And Rayno isn't particularly a true believer - he's a pure power operator, the half of the Clyntahn/Rayno team that keeps it effectively engaged with reality. Orthodoxy, for Rayno, is a delightful tool for keeping the boot on serfs' necks and maintaining and advancing his own position.

JeffEngel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The answer to my original dichotomy appears to be Clyntahn is a true believer. He believes his understanding of the Writ is shared by God.

I will bet dollars to donuts this is the reason that moved Rayno to work with The Fist of God. I believe that Rayno's fundamental conservatism intensely dislikes the changes Clyntahn's actions are forcing on not just the Church but society as a whole.

Rayno helped Clyntahn win the election because Rayno saw that sincere belief in orthodoxy and thought it mirrored his own. He finds that recent events have isolated key differences that make Clyntahn a existential threat to all he holds dear.

That Rayno is working with the Fist of God is mightily speculative - putting it mildly; jaw-droppingly implausible would be my frank way of putting it. Stopping the Fist of God is Rayno's primary project these days. It's undermining the control of the Vicarate the Inquisition has, and certainly isn't going to be sympathetic with keeping the Harchongese serfs in line.

And Rayno isn't particularly a true believer - he's a pure power operator, the half of the Clyntahn/Rayno team that keeps it effectively engaged with reality. Orthodoxy, for Rayno, is a delightful tool for keeping the boot on serfs' necks and maintaining and advancing his own position.

"a delightful way for keeping the boot on serf's necks and maintaining and advancing their own position..."

Yeah...That is a good way of describing both Clyntahn and Rayno. Peter, I don't think that "true believer" is really a good way of describing Clyntahn. If you want to use the term to say he is sincere in what he is doing, I can only point out that Clyntahn is skilled at convincing himself that whatever he wants to be true is true. So yes, he is sincere. That particular talent allows him to believe whatever he wants to believe and justify whatever he does in his own mind.

I would prefer to apply the term "true believer" to people like Duchairn, the Wylsyns, Mikael Staynair, and so on. They are studying the Writ, meditating on what it means for their lives. Even with all the problems in the Writ, it is still capable of speaking to those who view it through the eyes of faith.

Clyntahn and Rayno are power players, betting on the main chance. Clyntahn's concept of God at this point has narrowed to the book of Schueler because what he really believes is in the iron rod and the power of terror. He sees these things as reinforcing his own power. He is not studying the Writ and applying its teaching to himself. He is a master of religious jargon, but what he is really doing is cynically using it as a tool to serve his own purposes.

Don

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n7axw wrote:"a delightful way for keeping the boot on serf's necks and maintaining and advancing their own position..."

Yeah...That is a good way of describing both Clyntahn and Rayno. Peter, I don't think that "true believer" is really a good way of describing Clyntahn. If you want to use the term to say he is sincere in what he is doing, I can only point out that Clyntahn is skilled at convincing himself that whatever he wants to be true is true. So yes, he is sincere. That particular talent allows him to believe whatever he wants to believe and justify whatever he does in his own mind.

I would prefer to apply the term "true believer" to people like Duchairn, the Wylsyns, Mikael Staynair, and so on. They are studying the Writ, meditating on what it means for their lives. Even with all the problems in the Writ, it is still capable of speaking to those who view it through the eyes of faith.

Clyntahn and Rayno are power players, betting on the main chance. Clyntahn's concept of God at this point has narrowed to the book of Schueler because what he really believes is in the iron rod and the power of terror. He sees these things as reinforcing his own power. He is not studying the Writ and applying its teaching to himself. He is a master of religious jargon, but what he is really doing is cynically using it as a tool to serve his own purposes.

Don

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Clyntahn's not taking the remainder of the Writ seriously, but then I wonder how seriously the older Wylsynns took the Book of Schueler. They had going for them a kind of hidden gospel, Schueler's charge, passed down through the family, so that the horrors of the Book of Schueler may have been passed off as clearly not possibly what he really would have wanted.

Maikel Staynair and now Paityr Wylsynn have a different perspective on the Writ: it's a human work, with maybe some divine influence working subtly through the Ark command crew or the religious and other traditions from which they cribbed good stuff. (Or at least compelling stuff, in some cases.) But they're not either, even less, taking the whole thing as a clear set of instructions on the right things to do. Maikel Staynair particularly has the confidence to accept, embrace, and use the good stuff in the Writ because he knows that, as a fabrication, he can ditch or route around the bad stuff as much and whenever he must.

Duchairn may be a better case as someone serious still about the whole Writ - I don't think he quite rejects the propriety of the Book of Schueler for a genuine heretic, but he's hardly confident the Inquisition is sorting people out accurately or on that grounds at all, and he's taking seriously the obligations of the Church to the faithful in the rest of the Writ - and having to reconcile those obligations and the Book of Schueler (even, hypothetically, correctly applied) may be one of the things making his life a moral hell these days.

Clyntahn is, certainly, a master at convincing himself that what's good for Zhaspyr Clyntahn is God's will. I'm going to take that resulting sincerity as the background for his bona fides as a true believer. He's certainly not a careful believer - more what you have in mind, it sounds like, especially with regard to some of the people you minister with theologies of convenience - but he's got a lot more feeling to his conviction, coming from that self-deceiving aptitude for generating sincerity, than Rayno does.

Division of labor - it's what makes them an effective partnership.

Rayno and Clyntahn are a bonny pair. Both are on the “Power through Religion” pathway, but I cannot decide for certain which comes first, the chicken or the egg. If I had to, I would rate the odds are in favour of Clyntahn’s being the true believer, who believes in the religion and uses the power that it gives him to enforce his version of the religion and maintain his licentious lifestyle. I don’t know how keen he’d be if he had to change his lifestyle to a more moral one. Rayno is, I think, the opposite. He likes power, especially covert power. He is quite happy to ride on the coat-tails of Clyntahn’s religion to get it, but my reading is that he is less dedicated to religion than to power, and if he had to change his beliefs and could do so safely, he might be prepared to do just that.

But I’m quite willing to be convinced either way.
.

JeffEngel wrote:

n7axw wrote:"a delightful way for keeping the boot on serf's necks and maintaining and advancing their own position..."

Yeah...That is a good way of describing both Clyntahn and Rayno. Peter, I don't think that "true believer" is really a good way of describing Clyntahn. If you want to use the term to say he is sincere in what he is doing, I can only point out that Clyntahn is skilled at convincing himself that whatever he wants to be true is true. So yes, he is sincere. That particular talent allows him to believe whatever he wants to believe and justify whatever he does in his own mind.

I would prefer to apply the term "true believer" to people like Duchairn, the Wylsyns, Mikael Staynair, and so on. They are studying the Writ, meditating on what it means for their lives. Even with all the problems in the Writ, it is still capable of speaking to those who view it through the eyes of faith.

Clyntahn and Rayno are power players, betting on the main chance. Clyntahn's concept of God at this point has narrowed to the book of Schueler because what he really believes is in the iron rod and the power of terror. He sees these things as reinforcing his own power. He is not studying the Writ and applying its teaching to himself. He is a master of religious jargon, but what he is really doing is cynically using it as a tool to serve his own purposes.

Don

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Clyntahn's not taking the remainder of the Writ seriously, but then I wonder how seriously the older Wylsynns took the Book of Schueler. They had going for them a kind of hidden gospel, Schueler's charge, passed down through the family, so that the horrors of the Book of Schueler may have been passed off as clearly not possibly what he really would have wanted.

Maikel Staynair and now Paityr Wylsynn have a different perspective on the Writ: it's a human work, with maybe some divine influence working subtly through the Ark command crew or the religious and other traditions from which they cribbed good stuff. (Or at least compelling stuff, in some cases.) But they're not either, even less, taking the whole thing as a clear set of instructions on the right things to do. Maikel Staynair particularly has the confidence to accept, embrace, and use the good stuff in the Writ because he knows that, as a fabrication, he can ditch or route around the bad stuff as much and whenever he must.

Duchairn may be a better case as someone serious still about the whole Writ - I don't think he quite rejects the propriety of the Book of Schueler for a genuine heretic, but he's hardly confident the Inquisition is sorting people out accurately or on that grounds at all, and he's taking seriously the obligations of the Church to the faithful in the rest of the Writ - and having to reconcile those obligations and the Book of Schueler (even, hypothetically, correctly applied) may be one of the things making his life a moral hell these days.

Clyntahn is, certainly, a master at convincing himself that what's good for Zhaspyr Clyntahn is God's will. I'm going to take that resulting sincerity as the background for his bona fides as a true believer. He's certainly not a careful believer - more what you have in mind, it sounds like, especially with regard to some of the people you minister with theologies of convenience - but he's got a lot more feeling to his conviction, coming from that self-deceiving aptitude for generating sincerity, than Rayno does.

Division of labor - it's what makes them an effective partnership.

True believer is one of those terms that is strictly definitional. Peter's use of it is common enough and I know what he means even if it goes across the grain to see it used that way.

I think that the answer to the question as to whether or not the Wylsyns and Staynair were taking the book of Schueler seriously is that no one had ever had to come to grips with the real life conseqences of it, at least as applied on a mass scale. And if you don't have to come to grips with it, you can duck it and focus on the more edifying parts of the Writ.

The same sort of thing happens for Christians using the Bible. I don't spend a lot of time with the more obscure stuff in Leviticus or the violence in Judges. I gravitate quite naturally toward the gospels and the Pauline Epistles sinse it's there my faith is nourished and fed. And even though I am rather normal that way, other Christians focus differently. The African American church has a powerful emphasis on the story of Exodus and is nourished by that in ways that the rest of us are not sinse their own history so strongly resonates with that story.

Duchairn is the one really trapped betwixt and between sinse he still dreams of restoring the COGA to what he regards its rightful role of keeper of men's souls by healing the schism. It's a horrible conflict for him and it will be interesting to see how he works it out.

Don

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Isn't it interesting how extreme zealots of any ilk certainly seem to screw up the works for the rest of us?

Dan Jones

dan92677 wrote:Isn't it interesting how extreme zealots of any ilk certainly seem to screw up the works for the rest of us?

Dan Jones

Are not all zealots, by definition, extreme?

Keith_w wrote:Are not all zealots, by definition, extreme?

Nope. Zealots are just filled with zeal. Which is to say they're really passionate about whatever it is they're zealous about.

Extremist abandon common sense in pursuit of their goal. Common sense like, "Wouldn't this action provoke the exact opposite reaction to what I want?"

Example: A zealous equal rights activist goes to rallies, protest marches, hands out flyers explaining why Equal Rights is a Good Thing, and does it all very enthusiastically.

The extremist decides all that isn't working and goes out to violently attack whoever he identifies as being part of the oppressor group (whether they really are or not). In their single minded pursuit of their goal, they often wind up abandoning the very principles that make their goal "good" to begin with.

The former gets sympathy and respect. The latter is more likely than not to create the exact opposite of his end goal.