Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:
But my initial thought is being overlooked. I never said anything about settling the planets. My question regards the failure of the League to separate the military importance of any wormhole junction from the planet proper by some mumbo dumbo legal definition of some sort. It is exclusively the wormholes that I find it difficult to believe that the SLN didn't seize -- early on -- setting an early precedent that the 'Mother World' cannot afford an anomaly of potential military importance to remain uncontrolled by it. Piss on Manticore if they'd like -- ("we don't want the planet, we want the junctions.")

No different than what Manticore is doing now?

Can you elaborate on what you see as the military importance of the initial Manticoran junction from the League members point of view?

Even then it's suicide to assault through a defended wormhole so it's a link between Beowulf and Manticore. But not one that can be used as an invasion route. And without the later discoveries it only leads from the League deeper into unoccupied space. It doesn't (yet) allow quick access around the League perimeter - that was an unprecedented situation (meaning they couldn't reasonably foresee it) and that happened slowly over time as other wormholes out in the verge were discovered.

I just don't see where the early League navy or mandarins would see it as a military threat or advantage. Quick access to nowhere at the risk of getting much of their SLN battleships destroyed if Manticore fought the transit.

as joanthan S has said the major benefits of the juncation were commical not military.

I understand and appreciate the benefits of the junction but what is the main benefit? reduced travel time. expect in certain times (actual war or disater relief etc speed is not crucial to a military ship. (i'm talking about how long to get to destination, not speed in combat) it is a very big deal to freighters ad other economical interests


now when you see manticore seizing termini(?) you can see a semi military use but that takes a lot of recent tech advances to be doable and again while it is a military manoeuvre it is primarily an ECONOMIC attack on the league, initially started in attempt to hit them in the face with big wet kipper and get them to LISTEN and actually look at the info they had provided about the MAlign.

We know there was at least one attempt to sieze the Manticore system after there was a strong indication (discovered by someone else) before the wormhole was explored. Taking Manticour then would have let the people who financed the mercs take over control of the system, do the exploration from the Manticore end and essetialy own the THREE habitable planets plus control access through the wormhole. Even if they didn't know there were more than one wormhole terminus associated with it, it still gave access by shortcut to all that area in the Haven Quadrant.

The SL really was too far away to be interested in the caputre of some little neo-barb system out in that direction. They probably would not have been concerned until after the wormhole was explored and THEN, when it was discovered that there was a wormhole from Manticore to Beowulf (an early colony and member of the SL) it would have been too late. The "owners" of the Manticore end would have been able to make agreements with Beowulf already.
I don't have any real idea of how the SL was treating wormholes in that time frame but given that an existing SL member had the one/initial terminus on it's doorstep, it is probable that Beowulf would have been "somewhat annoyed" if the SLN had showed up and demanded control. It's not like OFS/FF showing up somewhere in the backwoods of the Verge. Beowulf would have much more relative clout and probably a significant SDF even at that time.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:
But my initial thought is being overlooked. I never said anything about settling the planets. My question regards the failure of the League to separate the military importance of any wormhole junction from the planet proper by some mumbo dumbo legal definition of some sort. It is exclusively the wormholes that I find it difficult to believe that the SLN didn't seize -- early on -- setting an early precedent that the 'Mother World' cannot afford an anomaly of potential military importance to remain uncontrolled by it. Piss on Manticore if they'd like -- ("we don't want the planet, we want the junctions.")

No different than what Manticore is doing now?

Can you elaborate on what you see as the military importance of the initial Manticoran junction from the League members point of view?

Even then it's suicide to assault through a defended wormhole so it's a link between Beowulf and Manticore. But not one that can be used as an invasion route. And without the later discoveries it only leads from the League deeper into unoccupied space. It doesn't (yet) allow quick access around the League perimeter - that was an unprecedented situation (meaning they couldn't reasonably foresee it) and that happened slowly over time as other wormholes out in the verge were discovered.

I just don't see where the early League navy or mandarins would see it as a military threat or advantage. Quick access to nowhere at the risk of getting much of their SLN battleships destroyed if Manticore fought the transit.

Sure.

The League owned Beowulf as far as they were concerned. A wormhole junction from Manticore to Beowulf gives the neobarbs the advantage of the 'interior position' to attack a forward deployment of the SLN.

I tried in another post to embolden RFCs claim of what tactical niceties abound in having benefit of the interior position as McQueen had at Trevor's Star. Again, similar to what Leonidas and his 300 enjoyed at Thermopylae. It's difficult to flank, attack from the rear or cut off supply lines.

When the first MWJ were discovered, the League should have been cautious, strategically, because of what tactical advantages such junctions could infer. Moreover, they should have had the foresight that perhaps other wormholes may be present in the sector and setting a precedent in collecting them early on would kill the worry that said junctions would someday supply a direct prong of attack to areas inside the League. Moreover, the SLN should have foreseen, for anyone having read the Art of War, the strategic advantage of nullifying one's benefit of the interior position and claiming it for oneself. Because they couldn't risk any upstarts thinking it enough of an advantage that they could come calling one day. And they had NO way of knowing where the MWJ would lead or any future junctions.

I keep preaching 'til I'm blue in the face, that having the advantage of interior position can be devastating. One should learn that from the chess board (or similarly controlling the Mason Dixon line on the checkerboard with flying Kings). All generals and admirals play chess I'd think.

So, in summary, seizing any junctions would have set a precedent early on. Nipped any future potential tactical advantages in the bud. Nullified any interior positions thus protecting the SLNs rear areas. Denied any direct prongs of attack. And... claiming the tactical advantage for oneself would have kept the grinding boot on any upstart neobarbs or rebellious member states.

Securing all discovered wormholes would have fallen under the umbrella of very prudent 'preventive measures.'

Aside:
Also I'll blame it on that baggage again that I carry from other sources. Namely here, Stargate. Earth couldn't risk NOT surveying any and all Stargates because they didn't know where they would ultimately lead to, or lead from.

It's not like Earth to fail to see potential military value out of something. Worlds would grow. Sectors would grow. Navies would grow. Down the line the MWJ could potentially bite one on, and in, the ass.

I submit their current dilemma as exhibit A.
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cthia, regarding where else the Manticore Wormhole Junction might have led after its initial discovery: IIRC, wormhole theory and the previously discovered wormholes immediately prior and up to the time of the MWJ discovery, wormholes were thought of only as shortcuts between 2 different star systems, using the hyper bridge it provided, primarily useful for getting from point A to point B faster.

It wasn't until the discovery of the Manticore Wormhole Junction, as a central wormhole junction, with multiple termini, that that idea was thrown out.

Vince wrote:cthia, regarding where else the Manticore Wormhole Junction might have led after its initial discovery: IIRC, wormhole theory and the previously discovered wormholes immediately prior and up to the time of the MWJ discovery, wormholes were thought of only as shortcuts between 2 different star systems, using the hyper bridge it provided, primarily useful for getting from point A to point B faster.

It wasn't until the discovery of the Manticore Wormhole Junction, as a central wormhole junction, with multiple termini, that that idea was thrown out.

Vince, that seems to me even more of a reason to be cautious. The SLN should have been listening to the warning bells going off. A short cut between two systems supplies a tactical advantage on its own. It's an inside (interior) position on the communication loop. Heck, that's partly what the Streak Drive accomplishes. Someone in the League navy worth his weight in brass should have foreseen the possible future military implications of the junctions and acted to seize them.

An aside:
I wonder that if some similar anomaly existed on the high seas -- in international waters -- that afforded a navy the savings of days of travel time for mere hours -- the US wouldn't have acted to seize it -- or failed to immediately realize its strategic and tactical military significance? I shudder to think what Yamamoto could have achieved with a junction on the high seas.

I realize that I'm blustering as a reader. However, 'interior position' is interior position. The ideology is present everywhere. In boxing, you don't want to allow a fighter inside your longer reach.


A detour:
If anyone else is also up late helping to prepare a massive Thanksgiving feast -- here's to you! 'clink'

This year I'm deep frying a Turkey too.

However, what if it was considered and discarded as useless? What use would have been a shortcut along the amazon circa 1800-1830 or so, assuming Europe and the US all as one country for this? say the shortcut leads all the way through to the middle of mexico. Limited trade opportunities for interstellars compared to elsewhere, no real threats at the other end that couldnt be handled by a company or two of soldiers, no real shortcut value except to anywhere with more small poor nations, and juicier, bigger targets close to home. the transtellars are looking elsewhere (east india trading company) And remember, when first discovered, they had one terminal: beowulf to manticore. Its big for the locality, but until they found the rest, manticore was worthless. once the full extent was discovered, http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Maps?file=Honorverse3.jpg then it become far more use, but by then it would have been too late for takeover.

cthia wrote:Vince, that seems to me even more of a reason to be cautious. The SLN should have been listening to the warning bells going off. A short cut between two systems supplies a tactical advantage on its own. It's an inside (interior) position on the communication loop. Heck, that's partly what the Streak Drive accomplishes. Someone in the League navy worth his weight in brass should have foreseen the possible future military implications of the junctions and acted to seize them.

An aside:
I wonder that if some similar anomaly existed on the high seas -- in international waters -- that afforded a navy the savings of days of travel time for mere hours -- the US wouldn't have acted to seize it -- or failed to immediately realize its strategic and tactical military significance? I shudder to think what Yamamoto could have achieved with a junction on the high seas.

I realize that I'm blustering as a reader. However, 'interior position' is interior position. The ideology is present everywhere. In boxing, you don't want to allow a fighter inside your longer reach.


A detour:
If anyone else is also up late helping to prepare a massive Thanksgiving feast -- here's to you! 'clink'

This year I'm deep frying a Turkey too.

cthia wrote:

Vince wrote:cthia, regarding where else the Manticore Wormhole Junction might have led after its initial discovery: IIRC, wormhole theory and the previously discovered wormholes immediately prior and up to the time of the MWJ discovery, wormholes were thought of only as shortcuts between 2 different star systems, using the hyper bridge it provided, primarily useful for getting from point A to point B faster.

It wasn't until the discovery of the Manticore Wormhole Junction, as a central wormhole junction, with multiple termini, that that idea was thrown out.

Vince, that seems to me even more of a reason to be cautious. The SLN should have been listening to the warning bells going off. A short cut between two systems supplies a tactical advantage on its own. It's an inside (interior) position on the communication loop. Heck, that's partly what the Streak Drive accomplishes. Someone in the League navy worth his weight in brass should have foreseen the possible future military implications of the junctions and acted to seize them.

An aside:
I wonder that if some similar anomaly existed on the high seas -- in international waters -- that afforded a navy the savings of days of travel time for mere hours -- the US wouldn't have acted to seize it -- or failed to immediately realize its strategic and tactical military significance? I shudder to think what Yamamoto could have achieved with a junction on the high seas.

I realize that I'm blustering as a reader. However, 'interior position' is interior position. The ideology is present everywhere. In boxing, you don't want to allow a fighter inside your longer reach.


A detour:
If anyone else is also up late helping to prepare a massive Thanksgiving feast -- here's to you! 'clink'

This year I'm deep frying a Turkey too.

The Suez and Panama canals come to mind as prime examples of that.

Not to mention the search for the Northwest passage.

cthia wrote:Vince, that seems to me even more of a reason to be cautious. The SLN should have been listening to the warning bells going off. A short cut between two systems supplies a tactical advantage on its own. It's an inside (interior) position on the communication loop. Heck, that's partly what the Streak Drive accomplishes. Someone in the League navy worth his weight in brass should have foreseen the possible future military implications of the junctions and acted to seize them.

An aside:
I wonder that if some similar anomaly existed on the high seas -- in international waters -- that afforded a navy the savings of days of travel time for mere hours -- the US wouldn't have acted to seize it -- or failed to immediately realize its strategic and tactical military significance? I shudder to think what Yamamoto could have achieved with a junction on the high seas.

It's only interior position if you own both systems that the wormhole links. Otherwise it's just a fast way to die.

The tactical military balance is so radically in favor of the defender that a hostile transit through a wormhole; even with the tech of 400 years ago, makes the disastrous attempt to force the Dardanelles during WWI (Gallipoli campaign), look like a sure thing.
If the League (which isn't really coherent enough to have the concerns you're ascribing to it) was worried about the military use of the Manticoran wormhole they could easily address that by throwing up some defenses on the Beowulf end. Which would trigger far less outrage and potential vetos than an unprecedented (at the time) annexing of a minor polity in the most distant verge.


As for you're ocean shortcut I don't see the US immediately seizing control of the Suez canal; not even after it was turned over to Egyptian control, or when it was forcibly closed for 4-5 months (Suez crisis). That's probably the closest thing to a wormhole shortcut on the oceans. (That and the Panama canal; which the US did control and defend for the better part of a century; arguably creating Panama to allow them to build the canal fits a little better into your 'preemptively seize the shortcuts' idea.