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Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by n7axw   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:21 am

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PeterZ wrote:My point is that he can assert his power and demand success even if it means aping Charis. That would consolidate his grip on Safehold. His influence would not be dissipating and he would not be under the stress he is now under. If he can rationalize anything, he would have done that. Since he did not, he is either a true believer or a stupid unprincipled megalomaniac.

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I wonder if you aren't overthinking this, Peter. Rationality and Zhaspahr Clyntahn don't really pair off together. The man is a stupid unprincipled maniac who can give Missouri mules stubborn lessons. He doesn't have to rationalize because he knows that he is right. He doesn't learn from his mistakes. He will ride the plan down in flames and pull down anyone stuck riding with him. He really doesn't believe in any God who could correct his behavior because in his own mind the divine will is the same as his own. So when he is contradicted, his only response is to bear down harder.

If, then logic doesn't apply to him. He knows what he knows and wants what he wants and there is an end to it.

How's that for a character reference....

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:29 am

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No, Don. I am not over thinking this.
Clyntahn can't be irrational and climb the Inquisition's ladder of power. He must have some understanding of how to analyze and then manipulate the world around him to accomplish that climb. In OAR he is recognized by the other 3 on the G4 as very intelligent. They got bamboozled into declaring jihad and giving Clyntahn absolute power. An openly irrational Clyntahn COULDN'T have tricked consummate politicians/bureaucrats into giving up their power. He must be an intelligent and shrewd politician that recognizes reality.

If he can recognize reality and he doesn't care a fig about theology, he could have declared jihad on Charis' rebellion and copied their innovations. That he did not suggests a belief in the Proscriptions or a serious flaw in his intelligence.

n7axw wrote:
PeterZ wrote:My point is that he can assert his power and demand success even if it means aping Charis. That would consolidate his grip on Safehold. His influence would not be dissipating and he would not be under the stress he is now under. If he can rationalize anything, he would have done that. Since he did not, he is either a true believer or a stupid unprincipled megalomaniac.

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I wonder if you aren't overthinking this, Peter. Rationality and Zhaspahr Clyntahn don't really pair off together. The man is a stupid unprincipled maniac who can give Missouri mules stubborn lessons. He doesn't have to rationalize because he knows that he is right. He doesn't learn from his mistakes. He will ride the plan down in flames and pull down anyone stuck riding with him. He really doesn't believe in any God who could correct his behavior because in his own mind the divine will is the same as his own. So when he is contradicted, his only response is to bear down harder.

If, then logic doesn't apply to him. He knows what he knows and wants what he wants and there is an end to it.

How's that for a character reference....

Don

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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by JeffEngel   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:03 am

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PeterZ wrote:No, Don. I am not over thinking this.
Clyntahn can't be irrational and climb the Inquisition's ladder of power. He must have some understanding of how to analyze and then manipulate the world around him to accomplish that climb. In OAR he is recognized by the other 3 on the G4 as very intelligent. They got bamboozled into declaring jihad and giving Clyntahn absolute power. An openly irrational Clyntahn COULDN'T have tricked consummate politicians/bureaucrats into giving up their power. He must be an intelligent and shrewd politician that recognizes reality.

If he can recognize reality and he doesn't care a fig about theology, he could have declared jihad on Charis' rebellion and copied their innovations. That he did not suggests a belief in the Proscriptions or a serious flaw in his intelligence.

I think you're taking rationality as a much more all-encompassing thing than it actually is.

Clyntahn is quite intelligent and can put together plans quite well. He's able to recognize a lot of reality, but some things, he's not prepared to accept. Defiance of himself and the Church is among them. His attitude toward the Proscriptions is serious on the one hand but on the other entirely subordinate to winning the jihad and preserving the authority of himself/Langhorne.

One authoritative statement about Clyntahn, from RFC ("Siddarmark Legacy" thread):
All of that made the Republic a potential threat to Mother Church's supremacy, and in Zhaspahr Clyntahn's eyes, there is no real difference between a potential threat and an actual threat. As far as he's concerned, the only minor difference between them is a matter of timing: the "potential" threat simply hasn't reached maturation and hatched yet.

He really doesn't need any deeper or more devious motivation than that, guys. In many ways, he and the Gbaba have quite a lot in common. They apparently see any other intelligent species as a competitor = threat = enemy, which means it must be annihilated. Clyntahn sees any powerful entity he can't control as a threat to orthodoxy = a threat to his power as Grand Inquisitor = a threat to God's plan, which means it must be annihilated. It's actually that simple in his mind, and once that's grasped, everything he's done makes sense. It may be an insane sort of sense, but it's still sense because it represents a logical (much though I hate to use that term in connection with him) response to the nature of the world as he sees it.

I really don't like him very much.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by Randomiser   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:43 am

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Peter, just because Clyntahn used to be rational, doesn't necessarily mean he is rational now - except in the sense RFC suggested quoted in the previous post.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by EdThomas   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:32 am

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I have a question concerning Thirk's (and anyone, really) oaths to the crown and loyalty to the COGA. An oath of fealty is a two-way street with both parties swearing support for the other. I'm sorta thinkin' that Rahnald has not kept up his side of the bargain thereby abrogating Thirsk's oath. I'm also thinking that turning over the naval personnel might be a legitimate abrogation of any oath naval personnel had sworn.
I'm not a religious guy so I don't know if there are any formal statements a person makes that could be considered as an oath. My gut is that everyone has to have an Irys moment to actually break with your church.
Thoughts and comment please.
And may you all have something to be thankful for this weekend.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:56 am

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Thanks for reviving that post, Jeff. It isolates my point nicely.

Orthodoxy=Inquisitor's power=God's plan...I believe that was the extension of David's description of Clyntahn's logic.

He must believe in orthodoxy and God's plan as written in the Writ. If he did not he would not need them to consolidate his power.

If he believes that what he thinks God also thinks and had incorporated in His plan, orthodoxy become irrelevant. He can adopt the most powerful methods of consolidating power; Charisian innovation.

If he believes some Safeholdian version of Deism, orthodoxy is also irrelevant and he can adopt innovation.

All this suggests to me that to a large extent, Clyntahn is a true believer. He is after all not stupid and does recognize/accept reality well enough to create cunning plans.
JeffEngel wrote:
PeterZ wrote:No, Don. I am not over thinking this.
Clyntahn can't be irrational and climb the Inquisition's ladder of power. He must have some understanding of how to analyze and then manipulate the world around him to accomplish that climb. In OAR he is recognized by the other 3 on the G4 as very intelligent. They got bamboozled into declaring jihad and giving Clyntahn absolute power. An openly irrational Clyntahn COULDN'T have tricked consummate politicians/bureaucrats into giving up their power. He must be an intelligent and shrewd politician that recognizes reality.

If he can recognize reality and he doesn't care a fig about theology, he could have declared jihad on Charis' rebellion and copied their innovations. That he did not suggests a belief in the Proscriptions or a serious flaw in his intelligence.

I think you're taking rationality as a much more all-encompassing thing than it actually is.

Clyntahn is quite intelligent and can put together plans quite well. He's able to recognize a lot of reality, but some things, he's not prepared to accept. Defiance of himself and the Church is among them. His attitude toward the Proscriptions is serious on the one hand but on the other entirely subordinate to winning the jihad and preserving the authority of himself/Langhorne.

One authoritative statement about Clyntahn, from RFC ("Siddarmark Legacy" thread):
All of that made the Republic a potential threat to Mother Church's supremacy, and in Zhaspahr Clyntahn's eyes, there is no real difference between a potential threat and an actual threat. As far as he's concerned, the only minor difference between them is a matter of timing: the "potential" threat simply hasn't reached maturation and hatched yet.

He really doesn't need any deeper or more devious motivation than that, guys. In many ways, he and the Gbaba have quite a lot in common. They apparently see any other intelligent species as a competitor = threat = enemy, which means it must be annihilated. Clyntahn sees any powerful entity he can't control as a threat to orthodoxy = a threat to his power as Grand Inquisitor = a threat to God's plan, which means it must be annihilated. It's actually that simple in his mind, and once that's grasped, everything he's done makes sense. It may be an insane sort of sense, but it's still sense because it represents a logical (much though I hate to use that term in connection with him) response to the nature of the world as he sees it.

I really don't like him very much.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:04 am

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I think the oaths are all subject to the law. In this case the law the Writ establishes for the proper treatment of heretics in a jihad. If the authority given to the Inquisition is broad enough to support their demand for the sailors, the loyalty oaths would not be abrogated by a liege lord following that law.

If it can be argued that the authority of the Inquisition is not so Broad as that, then I would argue that yes the oath is indeed abrogated by a liege lord's failure to protect his subject/vassal as dictated by that oath.

EdThomas wrote:I have a question concerning Thirk's (and anyone, really) oaths to the crown and loyalty to the COGA. An oath of fealty is a two-way street with both parties swearing support for the other. I'm sorta thinkin' that Rahnald has not kept up his side of the bargain thereby abrogating Thirsk's oath. I'm also thinking that turning over the naval personnel might be a legitimate abrogation of any oath naval personnel had sworn.
I'm not a religious guy so I don't know if there are any formal statements a person makes that could be considered as an oath. My gut is that everyone has to have an Irys moment to actually break with your church.
Thoughts and comment please.
And may you all have something to be thankful for this weekend.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by JeffEngel   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:20 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Thanks for reviving that post, Jeff. It isolates my point nicely.

Orthodoxy=Inquisitor's power=God's plan...I believe that was the extension of David's description of Clyntahn's logic.

He must believe in orthodoxy and God's plan as written in the Writ. If he did not he would not need them to consolidate his power.

If he believes that what he thinks God also thinks and had incorporated in His plan, orthodoxy become irrelevant. He can adopt the most powerful methods of consolidating power; Charisian innovation.

If he believes some Safeholdian version of Deism, orthodoxy is also irrelevant and he can adopt innovation.

All this suggests to me that to a large extent, Clyntahn is a true believer. He is after all not stupid and does recognize/accept reality well enough to create cunning plans.

It depends on which way you're running the identity relationship there. I'd like to suggest that Clyntahn's interpretation of the Writ is going to flex, however it really has to, to accommodate what he wants and needs. He's going to adopt innovation, as far as he has to, but he's doing it grudgingly and with the need to have the weakening of his power base that the lax attitude to the Proscriptions this entails recovered elsewhere, in more fear of him and the Inquisition.

He really does suffer a loss of power when the Proscriptions are routinely, casually, consistently waived or at least considered not violated by any and all necessary innovations. The gatekeeper hasn't got much power when the gates are propped open for the crowd rushing through them. He'll accept that, yes, because the alternative is losing more of Safehold from the grasp of the Inquisition, but it's a high cost he'll pay if he gets enough out of it, not something he regards as trivial.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by JeffEngel   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:30 pm

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EdThomas wrote:I have a question concerning Thirk's (and anyone, really) oaths to the crown and loyalty to the COGA. An oath of fealty is a two-way street with both parties swearing support for the other. I'm sorta thinkin' that Rahnald has not kept up his side of the bargain thereby abrogating Thirsk's oath. I'm also thinking that turning over the naval personnel might be a legitimate abrogation of any oath naval personnel had sworn.
I'm not a religious guy so I don't know if there are any formal statements a person makes that could be considered as an oath. My gut is that everyone has to have an Irys moment to actually break with your church.
Thoughts and comment please.
And may you all have something to be thankful for this weekend.

I don't think oaths of fealty are violated by a liege lord being rather feckless - given the fecklessness of so many monarchs, such oaths would be a farce. If Rahnyld had, for instance, surrendered parts of the Earldom of Thirsk to the Church or Siddarmark or his pigeons, that'd be a violation of the oath on his end. Allowing the Church to make demands of Thirsk that offend his honor but are technically appropriate for the treatment of heretics in a holy war... that's ugly, but not the sort of thing that rises to abrogation of his side of the oath.

All that said, a time comes when a person's sense of right and wrong and fundamental loyalties will overrule, should overrule, the strict technicalities of the oaths they've sworn. The point of his oath to his Church is the service of the community under the Writ, and that may no longer be served by recognizing the directives out of Zion. (It hasn't for a long time, but now or soon, he may be able to do something about it finally.) The point of his oath to his king is the service of Dohlar under the monarchy, and that may be something best served, now or soon, by rearranging His Majesty's government for him.

In short, he may be on the best moral and political grounds to defy legal requirements while still being in the legal wrong.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by lyonheart   » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:39 pm

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Hi guys,

Sorry, this is my first post in a couple month's due to internet and computer problems besides being busier than I'd like, but such is life.

I'd like to thank the very many many excellent comments throughout this thread for their insights, but make a few points of my own.

Thirsk's primary concerns are his family, his navy, and his country, and Merlin must deal with all of them, and I believe in that order.

I agree with those who feel Merlin must tell Thirsk his family is alive first, to be as forthright from the beginning as possible [unless his daughters insisted he wait etc], then given that Merlin can't leave any physical letter or memento from Thirsk's daughters or grandchildren behind, where it would be found by the valet or someone else before Thirsk woke up, even if it was in one of his pockets, and burning it immediately after reading in the fireplace is also contraindicated; it seems far more likely Merlin will haul out a com, explain as Thirsk already knows, that the ancient or early seijins had received archangel blessed machines to communicate with each other over long distances, and its called a 'com' for short.

If Thirsk asks where Merlin's came from, he can honestly answer the same place their's did.

Showing his daughters and their families alive, talking to him in real time, moving, etc from aboard Destiny [on the way back to Claw Island] would be the best antidote to Thirsk's binge drinking and depression; though Merlin might inject some anti- alcohol agents and inhibitors to help sober him up more quickly, so he wakes up feeling a lot better than in 5days.

I suspect Merlin would offer sanctuary at either the Tellesburg palace or cathedral after the oncoming hurricane season on Claw Island, and those comments regarding it being the safest place are spot on.

Once his concern for his family has been ameliorated, preserving his navy, which he knows is doomed, will be Thirsk's second priority.

Merlin doesn't have to make mysterious hints or describe the 'City' class ironclads; Thirsk knows the Dreadnought is a 3 year old design, having probably found the ship's hull plate etc; his nightmares have probably been filled with imagining what blue water versions of the coastal ironclads the ICN has come up with since, though none will prepare him for the KHVII's.

It'll be interesting if we read anymore from his report on the Dreadnought, or discussions with Maik or Zhwaigair.

The appearance of the two replacement Rottweilers soon will encourage caution by the RDN, but I can't help wondering if a stretched Rottweiler with a pair of double expansion engines and 1-5 days of coal could be quite useful, which might result from converting the last ones on the stocks, steaming mainly for battle.

HFQ has Howsmyn thinking a couple more month's would be good timing for the KHVII's back in August, and that they could reach the Gulf of Dohlar in 24 days refueling at Port Royal, so we might see them in action before the end of October, if not then surely in November, much too soon to miss out on encouraging Dohlar to ditch Clytahn and the inquisition.

Since Ironhill got the word about the Mohryah Lode in August of last year, the EoC's financial constraints that reduced the KHVII's to only three initially has been eliminated, so I expect several more were quickly laid down, depending more on the number of large building slips available, thus the next batch has caught up with first so I won't be surprised if instead of 3 we have 6 or even 8 BB's greeting the RDN's western fleet [half or ~30 galleons?] sooner than most expect, with another 6-8 not that far behind.

Given the new steel works we've been hearing about since HFaF at Tellesburg, Maikelberg, and Lake Lyman, that are or were as big as Delthak, the steel shortage for all of the empire's projects ought to be alleviated rather soon.

Besides these, there are the steam powered colliers and freighters, troop ships and animal transports, that can be built much more quickly while carrying several thousand tons of cargo to keep up and supply them with the coal, food, ammunition and spare parts etc they need, NTM space for POW's.

Given the inner circle's interest in preserving Thirsk's power base, coming up with a plan that demonstrates how outclassed the RDN is, along with what's left of the rest of the Go4's navies, so the admiral is compelled to surrender to spare his men, seems the most likely plan.

How RFC accomplishes this will be fascinating.
I have my own ideas, but the odds are strongly against them being the same as his.

However, once the western RDN has been removed from play, I don't believe the KHVII's will immediately steam for Gorath Bay.

Rather, the semaphore communication nexus at Dairnyth needs to be taken out first; along with all the messenger wyvernries along both shores of the Bay of Bess, and the Mahthyw Passage, to reduce the potential alternate communications, courtesy of the seijin network; they don't have to kill the cute birdie analogs, just open the cages with bolt cutters and let them fly home. ;)

Cutting the semaphore links ought to at least double the time loop for messages between Zion and GC from around 14 hours to nearer 28 [given slower night transmission rates], quite aside from cutting most of Howard from Haven, while the longest internal Dohlaran semaphore messages would be about 4, after the Dohlaran government seizes its internal semaphore lines to protect them in the face of the erupting chaos.

Clyntahn may well recognize Thirsk is a greater threat than before, but if he stays quiet, his reputation might protect him for the short time left before things come apart; though the inquisition assassins would run afoul of the 'fist of god' [FoG] who 'missed' Thirsk thanks to Owl and Nahrmahn. ;)

The sharing of lists of Dohlaran agent inquisitors is a good suggestion, since SNARC's following each inquisitor as they reveal themselves ought to be pretty easy.

Kharmych and the other intendants and inquisitors may have plans and orders to take control if things get worse, which might include having Rahnyld IV abdicate with Thorast as regent, which might go badly and the inquisition blamed for killing the king that outrages the public on top of everything else and a general reaction against the Go4.

Then again, the 'FoG' might strike at the inquisition's leadership as well as pruning its rank and file before Thirsk and friends are ready, to preempt them, as directed by Nahrmahn, Nynian and OWL to decapitate their command and control.

The FoG has yet to be reported using mines, rifles and booby-traps, ie killing at a distance where there might also be civilian casualties; so Dohlar and GC might be firsts in that respect, but there would be many external observers of all this, thinking of their own situations, particularly in the Border States.

Sorry, this is too long already!

Hopefully more later today.

L
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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