Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:Thanks for the reply Johnathan. But I was referring to an Apollo ship already in n-space firing on an enemy exiting hyper while they're experiencing disorientation and nausea. (Harold responded likewise.) I always thought it'd take a moment for sensors, or the attendant officers, to function properly, so that perhaps an Apollo salvo can be launched then go ballistic without an enemy ship knowing. Sort of a stealth launch, because sensors were temporarily inoperable and the attendants momentarily incapacitated.

Thanks for answering a question I wasn't astute enough to conceive. As Harold opined, "now if I can just find the right questions."

Whoops. That's what I get for trying to squeeze in a quick forum check during a break at work - skimmed and misread your question.


Hmm, firing the other way I don't think it'd give much advantage either. Even if the sensors on the incoming ships are disoriented enough to miss a 96000g missile for a whole 10 seconds you just can't build up much velocity even in that extended period of time.
Say the target emerges as a mere 50 million km. An MDM could cover that distance in 370 seconds on a full+half+half profile.

But if it shut down after 10 seconds to coast invisibly (instead of using the additional 50 seconds of first drive accelation) it would instead have to coast for about 33 minutes before it brought up the 2nd drive in order to still reach 50 million km. And you've still got to use 6 minutes of powered flight from the other two drives - so the target has lots of time to react.

And since you can't see them before they hyper in, since no sensor can see through a hyperwall, you can't know anybodys going to emerge until they do. No way to launch towards where you know they'll shortly pop into n-space. Not unless you've got a certified pre-cog on your side; and that would be mixing universes


I'd bet that any sensor scramble time is far less than 10 seconds. But even if it wasn't the target would have to be heading almost straight towards you for a significant period of time before a short burn would let you (eventually) coast a missile into range for a too-close-to-react attack run.

Curious cat here...

Why didn't the Solarian League realize the military significance of the series of MWJ when they were first discovered and acted to seize them for some, at least partly convincing, military concern such as National Security or something -- long before anyone else had a navy to complain -- which would have set a precedent from the outset? Did they not have that foresight? Our Earth, who sees everything as a potential military weapon?

They could have even called the hostile acquisition the right to Imminent Domain. Even though the discoverers of said junctions would have known it to be more of an Eminence Front - it's a put on! Put on! lol

A blast from that past is... imminent...
https://youtu.be/GnHLgxKUsEA

becuase they didn't care?

when the junction was first discovered they only found 3(i think) destinations, of the 3 only beowulf was settled, so they didn't see it as anything amazing especially as others of similar size were being found left and right at that time.

also this was 400 years ago, the legaue wasn't quite as corrupt back then. i'm sure it still has issues but the bureaucrats hadn't been in charge for as long, they were still relatively new to the jobs, compared to 20th century PD when the last time someone (who had the power to do anything about it) questioned a SL decsion was well over a century ago.

Dauntless wrote:becuase they didn't care?

when the junction was first discovered they only found 3(i think) destinations, of the 3 only beowulf was settled, so they didn't see it as anything amazing especially as others of similar size were being found left and right at that time.

also this was 400 years ago, the legaue wasn't quite as corrupt back then. i'm sure it still has issues but the bureaucrats hadn't been in charge for as long, they were still relatively new to the jobs, compared to 20th century PD when the last time someone (who had the power to do anything about it) questioned a SL decsion was well over a century ago.

Aye.

Plus Manticore built a dozen-plus battleships and eventually augmented them with DNs and SDs when they found the wormhole. As soon as they did that, it forced the Sollies to leave them alone or make an open grab with the SLN. Heck, Haven's first war with Manticore was aimed taking that wormhole - not an easy task, eh?

If you've been paying attention to the books, there have been quite a few mentions of the League's disastrous veto arrangements, which slammed the door shut on any cohesive foreign policies(with the exception of the Eridani Edict). They did not find it easy to finally send Filareta out, despite all the pre-positioning, the New Tuscany incident, the Battle of Spindle and Laocoon sweeping through the League.

Take all those "provocations" away and it becomes impossible.

munroburton wrote:

Dauntless wrote:becuase they didn't care?

when the junction was first discovered they only found 3(i think) destinations, of the 3 only beowulf was settled, so they didn't see it as anything amazing especially as others of similar size were being found left and right at that time.

also this was 400 years ago, the legaue wasn't quite as corrupt back then. i'm sure it still has issues but the bureaucrats hadn't been in charge for as long, they were still relatively new to the jobs, compared to 20th century PD when the last time someone (who had the power to do anything about it) questioned a SL decsion was well over a century ago.

Aye.

Plus Manticore built a dozen-plus battleships and eventually augmented them with DNs and SDs when they found the wormhole. As soon as they did that, it forced the Sollies to leave them alone or make an open grab with the SLN. Heck, Haven's first war with Manticore was aimed taking that wormhole - not an easy task, eh?

If you've been paying attention to the books, there have been quite a few mentions of the League's disastrous veto arrangements, which slammed the door shut on any cohesive foreign policies(with the exception of the Eridani Edict). They did not find it easy to finally send Filareta out, despite all the pre-positioning, the New Tuscany incident, the Battle of Spindle and Laocoon sweeping through the League.

Take all those "provocations" away and it becomes impossible.

I was counting on the SLN and the related government of that time to be only a 400-lb gorilla then, with less red tape and corruption. And with more leaders and officers with their eye on the prize that knew the fore from the aft of an SD.

The League was expansionist then, yet they ignored prime real estate assisted by space anomalies.

cthia wrote:Curious cat here...

Why didn't the Solarian League realize the military significance of the series of MWJ when they were first discovered and acted to seize them for some, at least partly convincing, military concern such as National Security or something -- long before anyone else had a navy to complain -- which would have set a precedent from the outset? Did they not have that foresight? Our Earth, who sees everything as a potential military weapon?

They could have even called the hostile acquisition the right to Imminent Domain. Even though the discoverers of said junctions would have known it to be more of an Eminence Front - it's a put on! Put on! lol

A blast from that past is... imminent...
https://youtu.be/GnHLgxKUsEA

That's easy, back then Manticore was a galactic backwater in the middle of nowhere. Plus the SL was probably a lot smaller (less corrupt) than it is today in the Honorverse. The 'verge' was probably a lot closer to earth than it is today. Back then the 'verge' could've been from 200-300 LY instead of 400-500 LY. Sort of like the Andies in MA2, IIRC the Andies only had a 6 planet empire in 1543 PD versus the 40-50 prior to the Silisia annexation.

cthia wrote:

munroburton wrote:
The League was expansionist then, yet they ignored prime real estate assisted by space anomalies.

Manticore WASN'T prime land back then. even with the junction newly found and its very useful link to the core it was still seen as the back end of nowhere. at the start the junction wasn't anything special. most big companies were happy playing in the League, where such annoying little things like rules and regs could be ignored/amended as they saw fit. they only shipped stuff out to Manticore or haven when people ordered it and they charged a far whack more for the "inconvenience" of leaving the SL. I expect that attitude didn't change even after the Junction was found, hence why the Manties started their own shipping lines. it was cheaper and money paid them went into Manticore's economy and not the SL's

heck in 20th century PD it is is still seen back end of nowhere. the cash flow from the junction is immense for a small single system for something like the league its petty cash. useful, no question but nothing worth bothering with, until they start blowing up SL ships and refuse to acknowledge the awesomeness and near god status of the SL and all of its members.

cthia wrote:

munroburton wrote:
The League was expansionist then, yet they ignored prime real estate assisted by space anomalies.

Dauntless wrote:Manticore WASN'T prime land back then. even with the junction newly found and its very useful link to the core it was still seen as the back end of nowhere. at the start the junction wasn't anything special. most big companies were happy playing in the League, where such annoying little things like rules and regs could be ignored/amended as they saw fit. they only shipped stuff out to Manticore or haven when people ordered it and they charged a far whack more for the "inconvenience" of leaving the SL. I expect that attitude didn't change even after the Junction was found, hence why the Manties started their own shipping lines. it was cheaper and money paid them went into Manticore's economy and not the SL's

heck in 20th century PD it is is still seen back end of nowhere. the cash flow from the junction is immense for a small single system for something like the league its petty cash. useful, no question but nothing worth bothering with, until they start blowing up SL ships and refuse to acknowledge the awesomeness and near god status of the SL and all of its members.

I wholly disagree with the general consensus that Manticore wasn't prime real estate. It was! -- still is! A planet with an agreeable weather system, a perfect axial tilt and access to a series of wormhole junctions for starters. Habitable! And a bonus of another habitable planet in its back yard. Oh what a bargain! What about that argues against prime real estate?

The fact that the SLN didn't think so has bearing only on their lack of intact reasoning.

Oh it was prime real estate alright. Man had set out for the stars. Any habitable planet is prime real estate. Manticore's astrographic location may have relegated it to boondocks status and distance may have been an understandable consideration -- THEN! BUT! - as soon as the MWJ were discovered, overall impressions should have changed. IMO.

Just like the mistakes of IBM, if you have benefit of hindsight, you can see it before it bites you in the ass.

cthia wrote:I wholly disagree with the general consensus that Manticore wasn't prime real estate. It was! -- still is! A planet with an agreeable weather system, a perfect axial tilt and access to a series of wormhole junctions for starters. Habitable! And a bonus of another habitable planet in its back yard. Oh what a bargain! What about that argues against prime real estate?

The fact that the SLN didn't think so has bearing only on their lack of intact reasoning.

Oh it was prime real estate alright. Man had set out for the stars. Any habitable planet is prime real estate. Manticore's astrographic location may have relegated it to boondocks status and distance may have been an understandable consideration -- THEN! BUT! - as soon as the MWJ were discovered, overall impressions should have changed. IMO.

Just like the mistakes of IBM, if you have benefit of hindsight, you can see it before it bites you in the ass.

I don't agree that it'd appear to be prime real estate to the League. Yes, it has three habitable planets. So what? There are 2,000 of them closer to Sol.

In fact, with three of them, the problems of colonisation becomes threefold instead of the bargain three-for-one it appears to be. Three totally separate, totally distinct ecosystems to terraform, colonise and make fit for permanent human settlement. None of those planets can possibly have shared evolutionary material, requiring three sets of xenological sciences.

Remember the Plague? That started on Manticore and then jumped to Sphinx, killing more than half the population and outmutating at least two developed vaccinations. If Sphinx and Manticore had been in separate systems, then the Plague wouldn't have affected Sphinx.

I can think of two two-planet systems in the HV - Nuncio and Mfecane - which aren't really that great. Nuncio's better planet repelled terrestial crops and Mfecane both had high gravity and 'less resources than other high-g worlds'.

Finally, the League wasn't historically expansionist. It was more like an United Nations, a place for the grown-up star nations to resolve their disputes. The expansionism came later, as a cover story when the bureaucracy decided to start helping the transstellars loot the Verge - under the guise of helping the young systems get on their feet and join the club. Those unfortunate enough to become the latest "members" of the League have to wait as long as 100 years before they can get full membership rights.

The practice has only been going on for two or three centuries. By that time, Manticore had a dozen or two wallers handy and had developed a working relationship with Beowulf and other interests within the Core. Those only got stronger as time went on.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:I wholly disagree with the general consensus that Manticore wasn't prime real estate. It was! -- still is! A planet with an agreeable weather system, a perfect axial tilt and access to a series of wormhole junctions for starters. Habitable! And a bonus of another habitable planet in its back yard. Oh what a bargain! What about that argues against prime real estate?

The fact that the SLN didn't think so has bearing only on their lack of intact reasoning.

Oh it was prime real estate alright. Man had set out for the stars. Any habitable planet is prime real estate. Manticore's astrographic location may have relegated it to boondocks status and distance may have been an understandable consideration -- THEN! BUT! - as soon as the MWJ were discovered, overall impressions should have changed. IMO.

Just like the mistakes of IBM, if you have benefit of hindsight, you can see it before it bites you in the ass.

I don't agree that it'd appear to be prime real estate to the League. Yes, it has three habitable planets. So what? There are 2,000 of them closer to Sol.

In fact, with three of them, the problems of colonisation becomes threefold instead of the bargain three-for-one it appears to be. Three totally separate, totally distinct ecosystems to terraform, colonise and make fit for permanent human settlement. None of those planets can possibly have shared evolutionary material, requiring three sets of xenological sciences.

Remember the Plague? That started on Manticore and then jumped to Sphinx, killing more than half the population and outmutating at least two developed vaccinations. If Sphinx and Manticore had been in separate systems, then the Plague wouldn't have affected Sphinx.

I can think of two two-planet systems in the HV - Nuncio and Mfecane - which aren't really that great. Nuncio's better planet repelled terrestial crops and Mfecane both had high gravity and 'less resources than other high-g worlds'.

Finally, the League wasn't historically expansionist. It was more like an United Nations, a place for the grown-up star nations to resolve their disputes. The expansionism came later, as a cover story when the bureaucracy decided to start helping the transstellars loot the Verge - under the guise of helping the young systems get on their feet and join the club. Those unfortunate enough to become the latest "members" of the League have to wait as long as 100 years before they can get full membership rights.

The practice has only been going on for two or three centuries. By that time, Manticore had a dozen or two wallers handy and had developed a working relationship with Beowulf and other interests within the Core. Those only got stronger as time went on.

I yield to, at least understand, all of everyone's points against the thought that Manticore would appear to the League as prime real estate. I get it.

But my initial thought is being overlooked. I never said anything about settling the planets. My question regards the failure of the League to separate the military importance of any wormhole junction from the planet proper by some mumbo dumbo legal definition of some sort. It is exclusively the wormholes that I find it difficult to believe that the SLN didn't seize -- early on -- setting an early precedent that the 'Mother World' cannot afford an anomaly of potential military importance to remain uncontrolled by it. Piss on Manticore if they'd like -- ("we don't want the planet, we want the junctions.")

No different than what Manticore is doing now?