Machine Guns in Safehold

Duck6actual wrote:But once you have a proof of concept (which is what it was) it would be easy for Charis to produce small cheap engines for forward logistically support

But the "Automotive" described above is NOT a proof of concept, it is a full-sized prototype. The proof of concept models were mentioned a paragraph or two earlier. Those were described as "toys" and there is NO mention of them having any utility except as toys.

Charis could build narrow-gauge tac-rail systems, but they probably won't. If they build any railroads to support their military advances, it will probably be "standard gauge" (whatever they choose as a standard-gauge) because of the distances involved.

Tac-rail was useful to supply the trenches in WWI, but it wasn't employed in WWII or the American Civil War. The latter wars relied on (existing) standard gauge lines and I can't think of any examples of extensive use of Tac-rail except the Western Front Trenches of WWI.

With the canal system, why the railroads? One is existing, the other is not. Build Wood gas powered ICE trucks if anything at least they would be useful on the battlefield. Major problem with rubber/bearings/steel trunions differentials etc, but at least useful.

War is too fast moving for railroads and if they did build them they would go with light rail assuming there was enough forest with large trees to make very quick temporary rail bed out of as was done to log large timber.

Relax wrote:With the canal system, why the railroads? One is existing, the other is not. Build Wood gas powered ICE trucks if anything at least they would be useful on the battlefield. Major problem with rubber/bearings/steel trunions differentials etc, but at least useful.

War is too fast moving for railroads and if they did build them they would go with light rail assuming there was enough forest with large trees to make very quick temporary rail bed out of as was done to log large timber.

Canals are completely out of service for at least 2 months out of the year, and for some historic canals there were years in which they operated for less than 3 months. Lack of operation would be due to flood damage, insufficient water, being frozen, or even too much water.

The advantage of railroads is that they are faster and can operate more than canals.

Castenea wrote:

Relax wrote:With the canal system, why the railroads? One is existing, the other is not. Build Wood gas powered ICE trucks if anything at least they would be useful on the battlefield. Major problem with rubber/bearings/steel trunions differentials etc, but at least useful.

War is too fast moving for railroads and if they did build them they would go with light rail assuming there was enough forest with large trees to make very quick temporary rail bed out of as was done to log large timber.

Canals are completely out of service for at least 2 months out of the year, and for some historic canals there were years in which they operated for less than 3 months. Lack of operation would be due to flood damage, insufficient water, being frozen, or even too much water.

The advantage of railroads is that they are faster and can operate more than canals.

Plus there are locational issues such as avoiding the Swayles on Chisholm (discussed in text) and crossing the short neck on the west side of Charis from Tellesburg to the west coast which would save many 5 days in terms of shipping time to Siddarmark or environs which make specific placements really viable.

A couple of technical points:

Lever Action, Pump Action - I hunted with the 7600. Lever action with tube magazines typically use blunt nose bullets, not spitzers or boattails - i.e., 30-30, 45-70, 9mm, etc.

Pumps and Levers will not be able to handle the back pressure when they switch the cartridges from black powder to smokeless. Pumps are limited to 30-06 caliber because the locking rings cannot handle anything any larger. Levers are limited to 7mm magnum - same reason.

Bolt actions handle huge back pressures easily. The current ICA rifle round is 50 cal I believe, blackpowder. Putting smokeless in the same case is going to increase pressures unless you put less power, in which case, you can then shorten the case substantially, but would change manufacturing specs completely.

To go semi-auto or full auto they are going to have to change cartridges completely to a smaller size. I would forsee a crew served full auto with a different cartridge altogether before an infantry weapon semi-auto or full auto. Similar to the WWI timeline.

But remember, even in WWII, the Germans used a bolt action rifle very well up until the end.

enutt wrote:
SNIP

I'm not sure I agree with all your points, but I've seen the logistics discussion previously, and it does have some merit based upon the details in the book. What doesn't make sense is why ammo production is centered in Old Charis. Ideally, it should be moved, at least in part, to Siddarmark as this would shorten the supply line as well as provide an increase in manufacturing capacity. Arguably, foundries in Siddarmark could get repurposed to ammunition production faster than to rifle or artillery production as the materials, equipment, and processes are easier.

SNIP

After the big industrial fire in HFQ, it was mentioned that additional small arms cartridge production facilities are being established elsewhere in the EoC outside of Old Charis. Don't have the book in front of me, but I don't remember those locations including the RoS. The establishment of such facilities requires several secure supply streams (copper, lead, primers, propellent, etc.) leading into them. So far our favorite author hasn't told us that those suppliers are available in the RoS.

V/R

Castenea wrote:

Relax wrote:With the canal system, why the railroads? One is existing, the other is not. Build Wood gas powered ICE trucks if anything at least they would be useful on the battlefield. Major problem with rubber/bearings/steel trunions differentials etc, but at least useful.

War is too fast moving for railroads and if they did build them they would go with light rail assuming there was enough forest with large trees to make very quick temporary rail bed out of as was done to log large timber.

Canals are completely out of service for at least 2 months out of the year, and for some historic canals there were years in which they operated for less than 3 months. Lack of operation would be due to flood damage, insufficient water, being frozen, or even too much water.

The advantage of railroads is that they are faster and can operate more than canals.

You are forgetting something rather important.

War, before the 20th century, only happened half of the year. And it was not until the middle(partial) to END of the 20th century that it was even contemplated otherwise.

Why? Food preservation. Disease. Shelter/warmth. And then ultimately, transportation through miles of thick deep mud. A hard to build railroad requiring hundreds of thousands of willing people is not realistic. Besides a RR will not help the above realities of war's aspects. Takes too much time, and the front moves too quickly for fixed transportation assets.

Even WWI was not a war during the winter. Pretty much everyone sat and survived. Why they could actually BUILD a RR to the front. The Front DID NOT MOVE and HAD not moved for years. No major offensives happened. Neither was WWII a war in the winter. Only on the best of days did anything happen by and large and that essentially consisted of airplanes flying. Ground troops on the eastern front did not move. In dead of winter, yes, but only short distances and very rarely due to one side being winter clothing equipped and other side NOT equipped as the ground was frozen. Do the Charis forces have winter gear and winter knowledge on how to survive? HELL NO! During WWII Spring offensives? Partially, but not really until LATE spring.

Charis and its allies have not solved the above problems making war possible outside of the normal 6months of the year time frame yet. It requires TRUCKS with BIG TIRES and and Internal Combustion Engines to make war remotely possible in non optimal months.

A railroad solves none of these basic realities of war's required logistics.

Therefore those canals are perfectly viable solutions for conquest avenues. They are the only viable solution.

Unless you are going to claim that there will be a stalemate... As if MWW is going to write the series into a stalemate like the Great War was.

USMA74 wrote:

enutt wrote:
SNIP

I'm not sure I agree with all your points, but I've seen the logistics discussion previously, and it does have some merit based upon the details in the book. What doesn't make sense is why ammo production is centered in Old Charis. Ideally, it should be moved, at least in part, to Siddarmark as this would shorten the supply line as well as provide an increase in manufacturing capacity. Arguably, foundries in Siddarmark could get repurposed to ammunition production faster than to rifle or artillery production as the materials, equipment, and processes are easier.

SNIP

After the big industrial fire in HFQ, it was mentioned that additional small arms cartridge production facilities are being established elsewhere in the EoC outside of Old Charis. Don't have the book in front of me, but I don't remember those locations including the RoS. The establishment of such facilities requires several secure supply streams (copper, lead, primers, propellent, etc.) leading into them. So far our favorite author hasn't told us that those suppliers are available in the RoS.

V/R

When that was Howsmyn thinking about the spread of ammo manufacturing, the fact that none of it was outside the EoC isn't that informative about what may or may not be going on outside the EoC. If the Republic is building ammo lines - and there's no reason to suppose they'd be crazy enough not to - it won't be Howsmyn's business all that directly.

That said, the Republic isn't going to be on the edge of development the way Howsmyn is, and for a long time, it's likely the Republic is getting arms and ammunition from Charis to fill its own needs rather than having any spare manufacturing of either that it can offer Charis, as much as it'd be very nice to have the manufacturing sites for those a shorter trip from the front. (So long as the front keeps moving away, at least.)

Ammunition manufacturing in Tarot would minimize the distance from an EoC site to the front in Siddarmark. What Howsmyn was thinking of was a site in Emerald (across from the Wyvernry) and in Chisholm, if I recall correctly, which suggests more a priority in building it in places that are especially secure, close to specific natural resources (Emerald), and/or close to where the training units are (Chisholm). It could be that Tarot is on the list but further back; that Tarot's known and accessible natural resources just suck for ammunition production; or that the EoC anticipates, in the medium to long term, more use for ammunition production sites close to a new front closer to Chisholm than Tarot, on the western shores of Haven and Howard.

CRC wrote:A couple of technical points:

Lever Action, Pump Action - I hunted with the 7600. Lever action with tube magazines typically use blunt nose bullets, not spitzers or boattails - i.e., 30-30, 45-70, 9mm, etc.

Pumps and Levers will not be able to handle the back pressure when they switch the cartridges from black powder to smokeless. Pumps are limited to 30-06 caliber because the locking rings cannot handle anything any larger. Levers are limited to 7mm magnum - same reason.

Bolt actions handle huge back pressures easily. The current ICA rifle round is 50 cal I believe, blackpowder. Putting smokeless in the same case is going to increase pressures unless you put less power, in which case, you can then shorten the case substantially, but would change manufacturing specs completely.

To go semi-auto or full auto they are going to have to change cartridges completely to a smaller size. I would forsee a crew served full auto with a different cartridge altogether before an infantry weapon semi-auto or full auto. Similar to the WWI timeline.

But remember, even in WWII, the Germans used a bolt action rifle very well up until the end.

Mostly true concerning pumps/levers. The Winchester 1895 (lever action) was able to handle any of the .30 caliber rounds in service prior to WW1 by using a box magazine. The French Lebel (tube magazine) safely fired 8mm smokeless rounds by using two shortcuts. First the case was sharply tapered to keep the bullets out of contact with the primer of the next shell. Second the shell had a groove surrounding the primer, which kept the bullet away from the primer by pressure from the magazine feed spring. A closeup view of the primer/groove can be seen at: http://www.thedealershowroom.com/i/ammo/8mmlebel-2.jpg

Yeah. There's not much point in putting an ammo manufactury in Tarot if all the ingredients have to be shipped there before Tarot can make ammo. If anything, you'd be lengthening the time it takes ammo to reach the soldiers who need it because the route from raw resource to finished product is being artificially lengthened by putting the ammo plant in such an out of the way place.

Also, I was under the impression that railroads would be used primarily for EoC's internal infrastructure improvement before being built in places outside the EoC.