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When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:49 pm

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evilauthor wrote:Sending in a spy to randomly look for access codes ...


A spy would not necessarily need to look for access codes. The first step would be to narrow down the possibilities; is the Temple Windows or Mac? Maybe a Linux server?

The problem is that even once the Temple is in friendly hands, Merlin, Nimue, OWL, SNARCs, and any TF technology won't be able to enter the Temple until they're reasonably certain that there are no auto-defense systems active. That means they MUST train a Safehold native to investigate for them. That does NOT mean walk into the Temple and hack into the computers immediately, it means start with a visual inspection and report back.
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:31 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
evilauthor wrote:Sending in a spy to randomly look for access codes ...


A spy would not necessarily need to look for access codes. The first step would be to narrow down the possibilities; is the Temple Windows or Mac? Maybe a Linux server?

The problem is that even once the Temple is in friendly hands, Merlin, Nimue, OWL, SNARCs, and any TF technology won't be able to enter the Temple until they're reasonably certain that there are no auto-defense systems active. That means they MUST train a Safehold native to investigate for them. That does NOT mean walk into the Temple and hack into the computers immediately, it means start with a visual inspection and report back.


Yep. Probably the best way to handle it would be to take the place over and then do the inspection. Use MacGuiness' sugestion of flooding the Temple with burley pilgrims in combo with my idea of using edged weapons to avoid even the hint of proscriptions violations. Then take the place over, ideally as Caylebs transports appear on the horizon in company with the Haarahlds.

A covert op in advance might be made to work, however. IIRC, the door to the basement is obscurely located and hasn't been used in a long time. It probably looks like the entry to a janitor's closet and the current occupants of the Temple are unaware of it. We know from textev that Father Paityr knows where the door is. What your initial probe would consist of Father Paityr and a group assigned as bodyguards to get him in and out. His initial mission would be to inventory what he finds in the basement. I'm not sure how useful this would be, but it's probably doable.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:44 pm

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After nine centuries of complacency the vicars are doubtless doing the equivalent of taping passwords to the bottom of keyboards.
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:51 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:After nine centuries of complacency the vicars are doubtless doing the equivalent of taping passwords to the bottom of keyboards.


If they have the passwords to start with...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:56 pm

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n7axw wrote:I have to side against the notion of the basement of the Temple reacting to an invading army. As has been posted upstream in this thread, the basement really wouldn't know the difference between friend and foe.

Also, when those defenses were designed, it was in the aftermath of the War Against the Fallen which probably means that they are designed against TF tech used by a fallen angel they missed or even against one or more of the Adams and Eves who may have had access to forbidden tech. In short they wanted to avoid a repeat of Kau-yung's vest pocket nuke.

There is no reason to conjecture that the Temple would react to primatively armed armies. In fact, Cayleb is looking forward to the Haarahlds escorting transports with troops into Temple Bay. More recently they have expressed concern about shore batteries producing plunging fire from those rockets Brother Fulton demonstrated to Maigwair, but no concern about the defenses themselves and Merlin has been in on the discussion all the way. If there had been valid reason for concern, Merlin would have brought it up.

Plotwise it would make no sense either. Let's put the allied armies on hold, say 75 miles from the Temple and try for some sort of an Ashes of Victory scenario... Does anyone seriously believe that's going to happen? I don't. Or let's set up some sort of long distance blockade and starve the suckers out. Can you see Cayleb and Merlin agreeing to deliberately starving over a million people most of whom would be only guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Again, I don't see that.

There is really only one exception that I can see that we have textev for and that is if Father Paityr's key gets plugged into the slot in the computer in the Temple basement and those exes start going off. The result of that would be completely unpredictable and could be dangerous. To add another layer of complexity to this, we also are not sure that there are not other keys.

It has been suggested that there should be more information gathered. True. I'm all for that. But how is it done? Merlin and Nimue are the only individuals with any background with computers and they don't don't dare get their power supplies near the Temple defenses. And even without that limitation, they certainly don't claim to be in Dr Proctor's league. So we end up with catch 22.

To conclude, as long as what happens upstairs don't trigure a reponse by violating the proscriptions., I strongly doubt that the basement even cares who the occupants upstairs are or if the place changes hands.

Don

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I think that the concept that the OBS will respond to tech that violates the proscriptions is a Red Herring! There were no actual cases of its usage for this task but there were examples of it being used when someone crossed the "powers that be".

It seems most likely that the OBS is interactive with controls in/under the temple.

I like the proposal to "buy the loyalties of Harchon with a sack full of silver and a flowery invitation.
Charis has an island full of silver and OWL is an acknowledged master forger who has no problem putting broadsides up where ever they want.

No need to do it all on the same night if they start at the center and work their way out.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by n7axw   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:06 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:
n7axw wrote:I have to side against the notion of the basement of the Temple reacting to an invading army. As has been posted upstream in this thread, the basement really wouldn't know the difference between friend and foe.

Also, when those defenses were designed, it was in the aftermath of the War Against the Fallen which probably means that they are designed against TF tech used by a fallen angel they missed or even against one or more of the Adams and Eves who may have had access to forbidden tech. In short they wanted to avoid a repeat of Kau-yung's vest pocket nuke.

There is no reason to conjecture that the Temple would react to primatively armed armies. In fact, Cayleb is looking forward to the Haarahlds escorting transports with troops into Temple Bay. More recently they have expressed concern about shore batteries producing plunging fire from those rockets Brother Fulton demonstrated to Maigwair, but no concern about the defenses themselves and Merlin has been in on the discussion all the way. If there had been valid reason for concern, Merlin would have brought it up.

Plotwise it would make no sense either. Let's put the allied armies on hold, say 75 miles from the Temple and try for some sort of an Ashes of Victory scenario... Does anyone seriously believe that's going to happen? I don't. Or let's set up some sort of long distance blockade and starve the suckers out. Can you see Cayleb and Merlin agreeing to deliberately starving over a million people most of whom would be only guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Again, I don't see that.

There is really only one exception that I can see that we have textev for and that is if Father Paityr's key gets plugged into the slot in the computer in the Temple basement and those exes start going off. The result of that would be completely unpredictable and could be dangerous. To add another layer of complexity to this, we also are not sure that there are not other keys.

It has been suggested that there should be more information gathered. True. I'm all for that. But how is it done? Merlin and Nimue are the only individuals with any background with computers and they don't don't dare get their power supplies near the Temple defenses. And even without that limitation, they certainly don't claim to be in Dr Proctor's league. So we end up with catch 22.

To conclude, as long as what happens upstairs don't trigure a reponse by violating the proscriptions., I strongly doubt that the basement even cares who the occupants upstairs are or if the place changes hands.

Don

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I think that the concept that the OBS will respond to tech that violates the proscriptions is a Red Herring! There were no actual cases of its usage for this task but there were examples of it being used when someone crossed the "powers that be".

It seems most likely that the OBS is interactive with controls in/under the temple.

I like the proposal to "buy the loyalties of Harchon with a sack full of silver and a flowery invitation.
Charis has an island full of silver and OWL is an acknowledged master forger who has no problem putting broadsides up where ever they want.

No need to do it all on the same night if they start at the center and work their way out.


Well, one might consider the strike on Armageddon Reef as being over the use of technology forbidden by the proscriptions. To be sure, the proscriptions had not been formalized yet, but the message was that whoever commits Shan-wei's sin will experience Shan-wei's fate. The proscriptions merely lay out in legalised form what that sin was that it might be avoided.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:34 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:I think that the concept that the OBS will respond to tech that violates the proscriptions is a Red Herring! There were no actual cases of its usage for this task but there were examples of it being used when someone crossed the "powers that be".

It seems most likely that the OBS is interactive with controls in/under the temple.


Merlin, who knows what the OBS could do, is concerned about an autonomous reaction from the OBS. You're probably correct in guessing that the OBS is only "command interactive" but Merlin isn't willing to risk the island of Charis (or the Charisian Empire and its Allies) on even a high percentage bet that the OBS won't react autonomously.

The cost of being wrong is too high to make assumptions less than the worst case.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:13 pm

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A spy could logically look at the closed shelves of the Great Library and see if there's any dusty volume called "101 Things To Do In The Basement When Demons Are Loose".
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by Bluestrike2   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:11 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
Bluestrike2 wrote:But I don't think that's what will happen. I think that Owl, as a military AI, or Merlin as the ranking naval officer on Safehold will be able to take command of the computer via military override codes. Weber already did just that in Heirs of Empire in the Dahak series when Sean uses his Imperial codes to deactivate the quarantine systems on Pardal. It's easy, it's clean, and it lets the Inner Circle gain access to the command staff's records with minimal risk. Not to mention that they'd get to interrogate any virtual personalities present under the Temple.

Military systems would have some pretty strict protocols hardwired in place to protect them against outside threats. Protocols along the lines of recognizing higher command authority, wiping systems and destroying hardware if at risk of capture, etc. Everything on Safehold was built with military fabricators, so it's logical to assume that such protocols were in place and that they were automatically applied to any new tech that was fabricated.

The Temple was built by the winning side at the end of the War Against the Fallen. The other side in the war was predominantly the military and police forces of Safehold before the war. So specifically military protocols would be the least secure option for the Temple's builders - unlike the quarantine system and associated hardware on Pardal.

Also, there'd been no small amount of wartime experience and expedients applied. The information security habits represented by the Temple's designers will have diverged considerably from Owl's in ways they can't predict without exploration.


It wouldn't matter who won. My point was that any TF industrial hardware would have been hardwired to include its security protocols in anything that it was used to produce. Otherwise, the entire point is moot: bad actors would just have to build a new fabrication unit and *poof* they can get around lockouts and limitations. That might not apply to combat remotes (fear of hacking, like you pointed out) because they can't reproduce or build other bad things, but it would certainly apply to AIs, fabrication units, etc. If security protocols like these exist, they'd have been developed to protect against the best black hat hackers of humanity as well as the Gbaba's own cyberneticists and refined over years of attempted intrusions. I sincerely doubt any of the anti-tech members of Langhorne's faction would have been able to do what those sorts of individuals couldn't. Simply put, the angels really wouldn't have had much of a choice in the matter.

During the war, there are a few possible explanations for why they might not have been able to do anything. Access is the biggest one, since the Angel's industrial infrastructure was in orbit. There might not have been any officers of sufficient rank left alive, or those left might not have known any override codes or that they existed. Finally, the administrative council (or what was left of it) was still technically the duly constituted government of Safehold, despite the fact that they abandoned the colonial charter and effectively committed treason. That might have been enough to keep the lights on, so to speak.

The Temple was built well after the last of the Fallen were murdered. To the surviving command staff, they won. Their enemies were gone after they were carefully hunted down to the last man and their plan for Safehold was back on track. Given how damaged their psyches were, it's a safe bet that their paranoia shifted from the threat of any surviving Fallen (since they knew there were none left) to eventual violations of the Proscriptions. Human memory and cognitive biases would take care of the rest. Aside from the basic security settings (firewalls, access permissions, etc.), most of their efforts would focus on protecting against a low-tech opponent rather than a high-tech one. And even that would probably be a bit iffy, since they were supremely confident that nothing could derail their plan (refer to the administrative council meeting at the beginning of OAR when Bédard and Shan-wei argue about Egypt).

Even paranoiacs have biases and mental blindspots.
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Re: When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....
Post by TBird50   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:34 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:I think that the concept that the OBS will respond to tech that violates the proscriptions is a Red Herring! There were no actual cases of its usage for this task but there were examples of it being used when someone crossed the "powers that be".

It seems most likely that the OBS is interactive with controls in/under the temple.


Merlin, who knows what the OBS could do, is concerned about an autonomous reaction from the OBS. You're probably correct in guessing that the OBS is only "command interactive" but Merlin isn't willing to risk the island of Charis (or the Charisian Empire and its Allies) on even a high percentage bet that the OBS won't react autonomously.

The cost of being wrong is too high to make assumptions less than the worst case.


The OBS has some capabilities because Merlin had OWL send a SNARC to probe for more information but as soon as it (the SNARC) went active (whatever that meant) it had been "picked off almost instantly by a laser-armed anti-missile platform. Another SNARC had attempted to penetrate the defended perimeter under maximum stealth, only to be detected and destroyed while it was still thousands of kilometers from the platforms."
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