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Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:06 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:It does have the problem that (1) it runs counter to the Writ and the general conservatism of it, particularly to do with technology, and (2) it makes Shan-wei's lures of forbidden knowledge and rejecting Langhorne's teachings under the guise of benefiting oneself and one's people sound like God's plan, so the War Against the Fallen was, in effect, won by the bad guys. That's a painful lot to swallow, even in the face of reality strongly suggesting it may have a point.

But yeah, it would certainly have that much going for it, and reality can sometimes make a dent in religious belief - usually by ushering it out of the way.

There's another theological option to consider though - Clyntahn's suicide cult reading of the Writ. On it, angelic intervention comes eventually, but Safehold will be tempted sorely before that comes. It will be tempted by the alleged sins of the Vicarate into rebellion and apostacy; it will be tempted by Shan-wei's lures, appealing to fallen man's weakness and "better nature"; it will appeal to the sheer desire to live and knuckle under to heretics triumphant on the battlefield. It may well go all the way until Safehold consists of a world of heretics marching on a small, faithful to the last holdout in Zion led by Langhorne's sole true heir, Zhaspyr Clyntahn, expecting fully that nothing but a miracle can save them... when at last the Rakurai cleanse God's world of the unbeliever, Langhorne and the Archangels return in glory, and those few - living or martyred - who never, ever let go his charge are rewarded for their absolute faith in Him.

That one is a mighty stern and demanding theology. It's not going to reveal itself in the world til the very end, but it's a fair reading of the Writ and it's one to motivate fighting on no matter what.


Indeed your alternative theological view has its attractions to the sufficiently faithful and only to the sufficiently faithful. The key problem is that the Writ also requires that God's children act as he would have them act. The CoGA is a religion of works not faith and faith alone. That is the sine qua non of the Inquisition's justification. Whatever the inquisition does to foster compliance to the Writ as it defines compliance is justifiable. Why God's children comply is not as important as that they do comply.

That means that to encourage people to sit back and let God save us all is anathema to the theological foundation of the Inquisition. Human salvation requires humanity to act and earn that salvation. Salvation for humanity needs the Inquisition to guide human activity so that it earns salvation from God. Just as God acted through His archangels to bring about creation, He acts through His Church to prepare humanity to receive His salvation. Letting God do all the work is tantamount to saying their entire raison d'etre does not exist. If human action is unnecessary to human salvation, then the fundamental task of the Inquisition is unnecessary.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:53 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:There's another theological option to consider though - Clyntahn's suicide cult reading of the Writ. On it, angelic intervention comes eventually, but Safehold will be tempted sorely before that comes. It will be tempted by the alleged sins of the Vicarate into rebellion and apostacy; it will be tempted by Shan-wei's lures, appealing to fallen man's weakness and "better nature"; it will appeal to the sheer desire to live and knuckle under to heretics triumphant on the battlefield. It may well go all the way until Safehold consists of a world of heretics marching on a small, faithful to the last holdout in Zion led by Langhorne's sole true heir, Zhaspyr Clyntahn, expecting fully that nothing but a miracle can save them... when at last the Rakurai cleanse God's world of the unbeliever, Langhorne and the Archangels return in glory, and those few - living or martyred - who never, ever let go his charge are rewarded for their absolute faith in Him.

That one is a mighty stern and demanding theology. It's not going to reveal itself in the world til the very end, but it's a fair reading of the Writ and it's one to motivate fighting on no matter what.


Indeed your alternative theological view has its attractions to the sufficiently faithful and only to the sufficiently faithful. The key problem is that the Writ also requires that God's children act as he would have them act. The CoGA is a religion of works not faith and faith alone. That is the sine qua non of the Inquisition's justification. Whatever the inquisition does to foster compliance to the Writ as it defines compliance is justifiable. Why God's children comply is not as important as that they do comply.

That means that to encourage people to sit back and let God save us all is anathema to the theological foundation of the Inquisition. Human salvation requires humanity to act and earn that salvation. Salvation for humanity needs the Inquisition to guide human activity so that it earns salvation from God. Just as God acted through His archangels to bring about creation, He acts through His Church to prepare humanity to receive His salvation. Letting God do all the work is tantamount to saying their entire raison d'etre does not exist. If human action is unnecessary to human salvation, then the fundamental task of the Inquisition is unnecessary.

I could have stated that better, but the point wouldn't be passivity. Clyntahn's God still requires fighting and struggling against the infidel - indeed, the signal form of failure is not fighting to the death. So that pocket in Zion wouldn't be sitting, praying, and waiting - it'd be the fighting remnant of all of those who kept fighting and, otherwise, died fighting the heresy. (You do get to get out of fighting if you're working hard to support the fighters in their fighting, including the critical, heroic work of the Inquisition itself, of course.)

It does have two other problems you allude to though: it runs into trouble if it calls upon people to act other than as the Writ calls them to, and it's not something people with wavering faith - perhaps due to considering anything in any other light whatsoever - can support with sufficient enthusiasm. So the people who remember all the invocations in the Writ toward kindness, or about judging people by their acts, or who have natural, healthy human sentiments from any religion or lack thereof that disincline them to die for Grand Fornicators.

But yeah - more and more, Safehold has the choice, must make the choice, between that Church of Clyntahn and anything else. The Church of Clyntahn isn't keeping the weak of heart within its bosom if they're not serving their use.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:20 pm

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I agree. It is not passivity. Its futility.

If God allows the Church's enemies to prosper despite anything the Church tries, anything the Inquisition does, God Himself is stating the Inquisition is unnecessary. The Grand Fornicator will never abide that argument.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:12 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I agree. It is not passivity. Its futility.

If God allows the Church's enemies to prosper despite anything the Church tries, anything the Inquisition does, God Himself is stating the Inquisition is unnecessary. The Grand Fornicator will never abide that argument.

The Inquisition is there to keep people from going soft. If human effort can win, the Inquisition is going to make sure human effort is consistently applied to that end. If human effort can't win, the Inquisition will have hardened the wills of many who may have succumbed to Shan-wei's wiles before the Archangels return.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:50 pm

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To the punishment chambers with you! Such defeatism is Shan-wei's work. God will not let Shan-wei win so if humanity is not hard enough for God's purpose, the Inquisition and the Grand Fornicator has failed God.

Again, not a line of reasoning Clyntahn would tolerate.

JeffEngel wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I agree. It is not passivity. Its futility.

If God allows the Church's enemies to prosper despite anything the Church tries, anything the Inquisition does, God Himself is stating the Inquisition is unnecessary. The Grand Fornicator will never abide that argument.

The Inquisition is there to keep people from going soft. If human effort can win, the Inquisition is going to make sure human effort is consistently applied to that end. If human effort can't win, the Inquisition will have hardened the wills of many who may have succumbed to Shan-wei's wiles before the Archangels return.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:19 am

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PeterZ wrote:To the punishment chambers with you! Such defeatism is Shan-wei's work. God will not let Shan-wei win so if humanity is not hard enough for God's purpose, the Inquisition and the Grand Fornicator has failed God.

Again, not a line of reasoning Clyntahn would tolerate.

There's no defeatism here. God's victory is assured. The question is just who will live to see it and who will stick to God's work. Some people on Safehold truly have faith in God and are bent to His well. Some others can be so long as the Inquisition stand over them and remind them of the consequences of apostacy. The faithful will fight til victory is achieved, whether that be near or far, and whether it requires apparent angelic intervention or can be accomplished through mortal hands alone. It's still God's victory if a mere 10,000 followers survive to follow Him, and if the mortal effort alone ultimately achieves "only" maintaining the faith and will to fight of that select remnant when Langhorne returns in glory.

Keeping that group fighting when they're all that's left, in the certain faith, despite all merely mortal power calculus weighing against victory or survival - that's an incredible testament to the Inquisition's work, if it comes to that.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:41 am

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God will have His victory, indeed. The Inquisition will have failed God because they failed to instill obedience to God plan in more than a handful of God's children. This is a religion of works which justifies evil deeds by the good that results. Torturing 1,000 innocents which results 1,000,000 would be sinners obeying God instead is a very large net good and great success for Inquisition.

The corollary is that if they only save a small fraction of humanity despite the evil they do to the larger fraction in order to guide them towards obedience, the good that results is minute compared to the evil done and the Inquisition will have failed.

Not an argument Clyntahn will entertain.

JeffEngel wrote:
PeterZ wrote:To the punishment chambers with you! Such defeatism is Shan-wei's work. God will not let Shan-wei win so if humanity is not hard enough for God's purpose, the Inquisition and the Grand Fornicator has failed God.

Again, not a line of reasoning Clyntahn would tolerate.

There's no defeatism here. God's victory is assured. The question is just who will live to see it and who will stick to God's work. Some people on Safehold truly have faith in God and are bent to His well. Some others can be so long as the Inquisition stand over them and remind them of the consequences of apostacy. The faithful will fight til victory is achieved, whether that be near or far, and whether it requires apparent angelic intervention or can be accomplished through mortal hands alone. It's still God's victory if a mere 10,000 followers survive to follow Him, and if the mortal effort alone ultimately achieves "only" maintaining the faith and will to fight of that select remnant when Langhorne returns in glory.

Keeping that group fighting when they're all that's left, in the certain faith, despite all merely mortal power calculus weighing against victory or survival - that's an incredible testament to the Inquisition's work, if it comes to that.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:32 pm

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I am sure this point of view has been posted before, but I am too lazy to search it out.

In the War Against the Fallen, the fallen won, and the true believers and followers of God's path lost and were demonized by the actual demons. The fallen bent God's wishes to their own desires and mislead the Church, the Vicarate, and the peoples of Safehold as to the true path that was to be followed. Now the Seijins have returned to assist Charis in returning the people of Safehold to the true path of God's plan for Safehold.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by evilauthor   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:23 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Not an argument Clyntahn will entertain.


This is becoming a familiar refrain. Hey, can you make a song around this? :D
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:24 pm

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PeterZ wrote:God will have His victory, indeed. The Inquisition will have failed God because they failed to instill obedience to God plan in more than a handful of God's children. This is a religion of works which justifies evil deeds by the good that results. Torturing 1,000 innocents which results 1,000,000 would be sinners obeying God instead is a very large net good and great success for Inquisition.

The corollary is that if they only save a small fraction of humanity despite the evil they do to the larger fraction in order to guide them towards obedience, the good that results is minute compared to the evil done and the Inquisition will have failed.

Not an argument Clyntahn will entertain.

Maybe not one he should, but I don't think he'd actually hesitate. The Inquisition's stance on concentration camp prisoners has been that, in a pinch, better to kill them all to catch whatever heretics are in there. God obliges them to kill the heretic, and gives them a pass at least if there are some friendly fire casualties in the process.

If it turns out that most of humanity cannot resist Shan-wei's lures, it's clearly less of a victory for the Inquisition than it would be had heresy been contained and expunged with just the leaders of Charis Punished. But Shan-wei's powerful and sometimes, what the best mortals can do is only so much. Preserving the faith and obedience of any of God's children when heresy walks the land in apparent triumph is good work, and sheer popularity can never make heresy right or the Inquisition's work better left undone.
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