Reserve destruction

Relax wrote:

ti3x wrote:So I'd go with programmable metamaterials able to generate interference patterns against the radiation, and bend it away from known observers.

Now if that isn't a giant handwavium statement, I do not know what is.

"Metamaterials" are a thing, right now and in real life. They do things that everything we used to think were cast in concrete would call impossible, like a negative index of refraction. After 2000 years of development? Who knows?

They have also employed the magician trick of giving something else for the sensor operators to pay attention too while the LACs where sneaking up on them under stealth.

The best stealth depends as much if not more on some one not recognizing that sensors are telling them something is there then not giving the sensors something to find.

In a star system with even a low level developed space based infrastructure you could have a very large number of sources of EM energy that you would have to deal with when look for a craft in stealth.

JohnRoth wrote:"Metamaterials" are a thing, right now and in real life. They do things that everything we used to think were cast in concrete would call impossible, like a negative index of refraction. After 2000 years of development? Who knows?

My statement had nothing to do with his metamaterials statement.

Had everything to do with being able to negate Irradiation due to heat. Something no one has seen in a lab or even theorized. Pure fiction currently. The ultimate handwavium. He added 0.5 + 0 to get 2.

Relax wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:"Metamaterials" are a thing, right now and in real life. They do things that everything we used to think were cast in concrete would call impossible, like a negative index of refraction. After 2000 years of development? Who knows?

My statement had nothing to do with his metamaterials statement.

Had everything to do with being able to negate Irradiation due to heat. Something no one has seen in a lab or even theorized. Pure fiction currently. The ultimate handwavium. He added 0.5 + 0 to get 2.

Then explain to me what thermal radiation IS. What IS IT?

It's an electromagnetic wave, particularly at the infrared wavelength at the temperatures we're used to (less than 1000 kelvin). Which means that you CAN deflect, refract, and reflect it (otherwise mirrors wouldn't reflect heat, and magnifying glasses wouldn't burn ants).

"So I'd go with programmable metamaterials able to generate interference patterns against the radiation, and bend it away from known observers."

I'm not talking about negating it, although I can see how "generate interference patterns against the radiation" might suggest that. In optics, particularly non-linear optics, interference does not necessarily mean negation. I'm talking about sending it somewhere where any fancy sensors aren't emplaced to see it in the first place, without having to worry about the attitude of the craft. And out of all of that, the only two things I believe we can't do right now is to affect such a wide range of wavelengths and program direction on the fly. Hopefully 2000 years isn't too short a time to manage that.

Before dismissing something as handwavium, at least Google and look it up on Wikipedia or something.

Relax wrote:

ti3x wrote:So I'd go with programmable metamaterials able to generate interference patterns against the radiation, and bend it away from known observers.

Now if that isn't a giant handwavium statement, I do not know what is.

Science future maybe.

One example currently.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7553061.stm

Have fun lots of hits if you use the search function and "invisibility" on the BBC news site.

Have fun,
T2M

ti3x wrote:

Relax wrote:
My statement had nothing to do with his metamaterials statement.

Had everything to do with being able to negate Irradiation due to heat. Something no one has seen in a lab or even theorized. Pure fiction currently. The ultimate handwavium. He added 0.5 + 0 to get 2.

Then explain to me what thermal radiation IS. What IS IT?

It's an electromagnetic wave, particularly at the infrared wavelength at the temperatures we're used to (less than 1000 kelvin). Which means that you CAN deflect, refract, and reflect it (otherwise mirrors wouldn't reflect heat, and magnifying glasses wouldn't burn ants).

"So I'd go with programmable metamaterials able to generate interference patterns against the radiation, and bend it away from known observers."

I'm not talking about negating it, although I can see how "generate interference patterns against the radiation" might suggest that. In optics, particularly non-linear optics, interference does not necessarily mean negation. I'm talking about sending it somewhere where any fancy sensors aren't emplaced to see it in the first place, without having to worry about the attitude of the craft. And out of all of that, the only two things I believe we can't do right now is to affect such a wide range of wavelengths and program direction on the fly. Hopefully 2000 years isn't too short a time to manage that.

Before dismissing something as handwavium, at least Google and look it up on Wikipedia or something.

1000 kelvin..... What on this earth or the universe gives you the impression any space radiator at 1000K of any size smaller than a moon is going to be worth a wet fart in a bag for an Honorverse ship wedge/spider using 10 gadzillion trillion kW's?

We must assume that they have developed ways of minimizing the infrared out put of their military craft. We are doing it for our fighter craft to make them less vulnerable to IR missiles and sensors.

Think of task of monitoring the volume of sphere 80 AU or more in diameter. Now in that volume you have tens of thousands of natural objects giving off or reflecting EM emissions of various intensities. Then add all the human made sources of EM emissions of various intensities that are not trying to hide from you. Now try finding someone who is deliberately doing things to avoid standing out in all of that noise.

Natural objects have a temperature in the vicinity of 4K to 150K or so. Keeping your ship that cold is kind of hard to accomplish if you have an exawatt fusion reactor running that has a temp about 15,000,000K in your ship. Assume it is 99.999% percent efficient (which is a totally absurd favorable assumption), you still have to dispose of 10 terawatts of heat every second. The entire surface of your ship will be glowing from the heat.

Hence this is space opera, not a course on thermodynamics or economics.

kzt wrote:Natural objects have a temperature in the vicinity of 4K to 150K or so. Keeping your ship that cold is kind of hard to accomplish if you have an exawatt fusion reactor running that has a temp about 15,000,000K in your ship. Assume it is 99.999% percent efficient (which is a totally absurd favorable assumption), you still have to dispose of 10 terawatts of heat every second. The entire surface of your ship will be glowing from the heat.

Hence this is space opera, not a course on thermodynamics or economics.

It's also hard to keep the crew alive at those temperatures*. As you said, the Honorverse is Space Opera. Enjoy it as such.

* 150K is approximately -190F or -123C. And if the entire surface of your ship is hot enough to be glowing, the temperature is approximately 900F or 480C at least (iron glows red at this temperature, water boils at 212F or 100C for comparison).

pnakasone wrote:We must assume that they have developed ways of minimizing the infrared out put of their military craft. We are doing it for our fighter craft to make them less vulnerable to IR missiles and sensors.

Today? Less vulnerable? No. A whole pile of manure PR has been spouted, but no solutions except against obsolete 60's missiles which are not a threat anyways.

The only solution is fly slow and low, IE not supersonic. Why supercruise is essentially useless, other than forcing the opposite side to make a decision quickly. Can't fly high as all this does is make a perfect outline of your plane against the 4K background of space allowing for easy shape recognition of your aircraft for optimum attack angle. The giant plume of heated air is still easily visible to IR sensors as well.

IR sensors are a massive problem for any flying object. They are also a massive problem for any tracked or wheeled vehicle on a modern battlefield.