When Merlin leads the Charge into Zion....

Weird Harold wrote:Nahrman has had several centuries of virtual time to study computers since he died. In order to decrypt the Key he and OWL need more information about what the Key is supposed to interface with and the only way they can get that is to train a Safehold native to get the information for them.

It doesn't have to be Pater Wylsynn, but it can't be Merlin or Nimue. Who else would you suggest infiltrate the Temple?

And where would they look for this info? It's not like the "Archangels" left paper documentation lying around on how to subvert their security systems.

Edit: Also, the current tennants of the Temple don't have access to any systems more sophisticated than door locks and environmental controls. Certainly Duchairne isn't doing the Church's accounting on a spreadsheet program or anything. They're doing all their paperwork on ACTUAL PAPER.

So what computing system could a "random priest" access to try and hack Temple security?

evilauthor wrote:And where would they look for this info? It's not like the "Archangels" left paper documentation lying around on how to subvert their security systems.

No, but the same factory that built OWL would have built the computers that the Archangels adapted to maintain the Temple and the Temple's defenses.

OWL and Nahrman don't have to know the specific hardware or have the operating manuals for the Temple, they have access to operating manual archives that pretty much cover all possible computers that might remain in the Temple -- active or dormant.

evilauthor wrote:So what computing system could a "random priest" access to try and hack Temple security?

There is the console in the subbasement that Pater Wylsynn was shown when he was given the Key. There are things like the "ever-changing murals" in Clyntahnn's office that are probably computer driven video feeds and all of the "mystic" climate control systems or door locks that can be over-ridden by Temple Security's wands.

evilauthor wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Nahrman has had several centuries of virtual time to study computers since he died. In order to decrypt the Key he and OWL need more information about what the Key is supposed to interface with and the only way they can get that is to train a Safehold native to get the information for them.

It doesn't have to be Pater Wylsynn, but it can't be Merlin or Nimue. Who else would you suggest infiltrate the Temple?

And where would they look for this info? It's not like the "Archangels" left paper documentation lying around on how to subvert their security systems.

Edit: Also, the current tennants of the Temple don't have access to any systems more sophisticated than door locks and environmental controls. Certainly Duchairne isn't doing the Church's accounting on a spreadsheet program or anything. They're doing all their paperwork on ACTUAL PAPER.

So what computing system could a "random priest" access to try and hack Temple security?

That's a very good point. The Temple complex appears to be very large (quarters for the church's upper leadership, their servants, kitchens and other serving quarters, office space for a global organization, public worship areas, etc.). A physical search could take a very long time, and there's no guarantee they'd find anything; the Temple has been around for a very long time, and no one seems to have stumbled into anything hidden.

There's probably an active wireless network in the Temple that's used for managing any maintenance remotes. They might be able to hack into it, but it might be less intrusive to send SNARCs through the HVAC ducts and map the hidden areas outwards from the environmental plant, they'll be able to find hidden doors from their non-hidden sides.

I think it's pretty unlikely they'll be able to avoid using any TF tech. Merlin's power plant might be a bit too hard to hide, but the SNARCs should be far less noticeable. They were originally designed to stealthily infiltrate enemy installations, so a stealthy SNARC probe would probably be far less likely to be detected than hacking into the Temple network.

Weird Harold wrote:

evilauthor wrote:And where would they look for this info? It's not like the "Archangels" left paper documentation lying around on how to subvert their security systems.

No, but the same factory that built OWL would have built the computers that the Archangels adapted to maintain the Temple and the Temple's defenses.

OWL and Nahrman don't have to know the specific hardware or have the operating manuals for the Temple, they have access to operating manual archives that pretty much cover all possible computers that might remain in the Temple -- active or dormant.

Uh huh. You know the what the earmarks of a good lock (or in this case, security system) are? Simply put, it doesn't matter if you know how the system works. If the system is secure, you STILL can't get access despite knowing how it works if you don't have the specific key/passcodes/whatever that gets you access. And the key/passcode/whatever will be inherently unguessable in any practical time frame.

Is there ANYTHING in any of the Safehold books that would suggest that the Temple has bad information systems security? Because if there is, I haven't seen it.

For crying out loud, OWL can't even crack the Key despite having physical possession of it and all the time in the world to work on it. When it comes to hacking, that's practically ideal conditions. Are the Temple computers going to be any LESS secure than that? I doubt it.

I would suspect that the info they need would be on a computer drive or whatever served for storage in the TF.

in that conversation Nahrman and Owl had over the key, the concern was that the if Owl went further with the penetration, the key would react to destroy the intruder, in this case, Owl.

The solution, obviously enough, is to create a new AI that wasn't self aware and use that to penetrate the files.

However it was made clear that those files can only be run once and it's a bit of a crap shoot to decide to risk running those files or to risk their destruction by analysing them would be worth whatever info they might yield which might not be all that great. In addition to that it could well be that there are files in the host computer without which the files in the key wouldn't work.

Randomizer was right to point out that it would "take someone whose grown up with computers to do that job." By that he was pointing out that it would take someone who had expertise in programing and how computers work as opposed to someone who simply used the computer for routine tasks. Within the Safehold storyline, the only flesh and blood I remember like that is Dr Proctor. And obviously enough, he's not available.

True, someone could be trained to acquire that expertise. But that is going to take time and lots of it. I would strongly doubt that such an individual could acquire the needed skills before whatever end game that brings Jihad to a conclusion to have an impact on the situation one way or the other.

But a candidate for that training should be recruited. My own guess is that the final stage of the war will be an invasion of Zion from the sea in combo with some infiltrators of the Temple to prevent the denisons of the Temple from forting up. Then, at some point someone who had been trained to understand what he is dealing with could attempt to hack the computer in the basement.

Something else to bear in mind is that we are working with a time limit that is growing shorter all the time. That mellenial appearance of the archangels is coming up and I would think that the time to resolve the computer thing would be prior to that.

Don

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Gathering information could be done by plugging a Key simulator into the console in the basement and recording the resulting interaction. The Key is trusted hardware and may not have a crypto handshake with the console.

More effective but more dangerous would be to run the actual Key through some man-in-the-middle device to record the conversation and to edit out commands to drop rocks.

The temptation to simply slag the console would be hard to resist, but what if it's the only way to turn off the OBS?

Meanwhile, any decent cyber attacker starts with a recce on the target. That still needs to be done.

evilauthor wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:No, but the same factory that built OWL would have built the computers that the Archangels adapted to maintain the Temple and the Temple's defenses.

OWL and Nahrman don't have to know the specific hardware or have the operating manuals for the Temple, they have access to operating manual archives that pretty much cover all possible computers that might remain in the Temple -- active or dormant.

Uh huh. You know the what the earmarks of a good lock (or in this case, security system) are? Simply put, it doesn't matter if you know how the system works. If the system is secure, you STILL can't get access despite knowing how it works if you don't have the specific key/passcodes/whatever that gets you access. And the key/passcode/whatever will be inherently unguessable in any practical time frame.

Is there ANYTHING in any of the Safehold books that would suggest that the Temple has bad information systems security? Because if there is, I haven't seen it.

For crying out loud, OWL can't even crack the Key despite having physical possession of it and all the time in the world to work on it. When it comes to hacking, that's practically ideal conditions. Are the Temple computers going to be any LESS secure than that? I doubt it.

The Key is pretty unique compared to the Temple's computer systems. It has a singular purpose (to activate Schueler's fallback plans), and is designed to interface with only a single, specific system (the hidden altar/terminal in the Temple). It isn't networked and doesn't have to interact with a multitude of systems (maintenance, fabrication, communications, sensors, etc.), so it's much more secure by default and that's before you even start to consider self-destruct mechanisms. You get to use it once, and it only works with a single terminal. Deviate from the expected process in any way and you're stuck with an inert paperweight. Any computer system under the Temple is going to have to be much more flexible, and that flexibility is what any attempt to hack into the system would target. In an odd sense, the Key itself is too dumb to be hacked.

But I don't think that's what will happen. I think that Owl, as a military AI, or Merlin as the ranking naval officer on Safehold will be able to take command of the computer via military override codes. Weber already did just that in Heirs of Empire in the Dahak series when Sean uses his Imperial codes to deactivate the quarantine systems on Pardal. It's easy, it's clean, and it lets the Inner Circle gain access to the command staff's records with minimal risk. Not to mention that they'd get to interrogate any virtual personalities present under the Temple.

Military systems would have some pretty strict protocols hardwired in place to protect them against outside threats. Protocols along the lines of recognizing higher command authority, wiping systems and destroying hardware if at risk of capture, etc. Everything on Safehold was built with military fabricators, so it's logical to assume that such protocols were in place and that they were automatically applied to any new tech that was fabricated.

Even strictly civilian tech would have various protocols in place along with military overrides considering the nature of the threat the Gbaba represented. Once the TF realized that there was a genocidal species out there, they'd have taken steps to make sure no Colony coordinates were easily recoverable by the Gbaba. It wouldn't prevent the Gbaba from finding Earth or her other colonies, but it would ensure that they'd have to launch a significant scouting operation to find them.

And we can't discount wholly human threats, either. The last thing the TF needed was some lunatic stealing a fabrication unit, setting up shop on an asteroid with the right minerals, and churning out nukes to bring about Armageddon. Think Daesh in space.

Given the risks, such protocols would be even more deeply embedded than the PICA ten-day limitations. Unless Proctor's twin was walking around with his evil beard, it's unlikely that Langhorne's faction was ever able to get around them.

evilauthor wrote:For crying out loud, OWL can't even crack the Key despite having physical possession of it and all the time in the world to work on it. When it comes to hacking, that's practically ideal conditions. Are the Temple computers going to be any LESS secure than that? I doubt it.

So what you're saying is that the Temple computer system is obviously too tough for anyone on Safehold to crack, so why waste time on looking at what is there and trying to figure out how to take control?

Bluestrike2 wrote:But I don't think that's what will happen. I think that Owl, as a military AI, or Merlin as the ranking naval officer on Safehold will be able to take command of the computer via military override codes. Weber already did just that in Heirs of Empire in the Dahak series when Sean uses his Imperial codes to deactivate the quarantine systems on Pardal. It's easy, it's clean, and it lets the Inner Circle gain access to the command staff's records with minimal risk. Not to mention that they'd get to interrogate any virtual personalities present under the Temple.

Military systems would have some pretty strict protocols hardwired in place to protect them against outside threats. Protocols along the lines of recognizing higher command authority, wiping systems and destroying hardware if at risk of capture, etc. Everything on Safehold was built with military fabricators, so it's logical to assume that such protocols were in place and that they were automatically applied to any new tech that was fabricated.

The Temple was built by the winning side at the end of the War Against the Fallen. The other side in the war was predominantly the military and police forces of Safehold before the war. So specifically military protocols would be the least secure option for the Temple's builders - unlike the quarantine system and associated hardware on Pardal.

Also, there'd been no small amount of wartime experience and expedients applied. The information security habits represented by the Temple's designers will have diverged considerably from Owl's in ways they can't predict without exploration.

Weird Harold wrote:So what you're saying is that the Temple computer system is obviously too tough for anyone on Safehold to crack, so why waste time on looking at what is there and trying to figure out how to take control?

Because they can't get that look while the other side is in control of the Temple. Do recall the most of the proposed hacking schemes thought up by people here has the prospective hacker being SNEAKED into the Temple, which implies the Allies don't have control of it's physical area.

Also, the worst potential consequences of failure to hack the Temple computers is also the same for using electricity while the OBS is still operational: entire continents getting pasted by falling rocks.

If you want to successfully hack a secure system, you have to know something RELEVANT about the system in question. Like what the access codes are, or if the system has any backdoors and what's needed to access those.

Sending in a spy to randomly look for access codes (which no one in centuries of occupation has found) for the Temple systems is like looking for a safe combination that's INSIDE the safe in question. And to top it off, you don't even know the specifics how the safe and its lock are constructed, the safe current owners would arrest/kill anyone who tried to access the safe, and you don't want to tip your hand to said current owners.