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Church of Charis Tithes?

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Church of Charis Tithes?
Post by FreeTrav   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:32 pm

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It's never mentioned, and doesn't seem to come into play in the books so far, but how does the CoC handle tithes? Are they using the same model as the pre-schism CoGA, where each national entity is responsible for sending to Zion (presumably Tellesburg for the CoC) some portion of its wealth (ISTR 20% at the beginning of the story), or have they 'reverted' to the individual tithes/donations model?

One can presume that Paityr Wyllsyn's Patent Office is paid for out of the Crown's budget, rather than the Church's, but his duties of attestation as the Intendant should be paid for out of the Church's budget, and there's all the other expenses (such as the various archepiscopal and episcopal palaces, cathedrals, et cetera) to keep the Church operating.
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Re: Church of Charis Tithes?
Post by dan92677   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:22 am

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Originally didn't 90% of the local tithes go on to Zion?

If so, 2% or 3% kept at home would be an increase (locally)
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Re: Church of Charis Tithes?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:43 am

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dan92677 wrote:Originally didn't 90% of the local tithes go on to Zion?

If so, 2% or 3% kept at home would be an increase (locally)


Do we have textev for this question? I'm not aware of any...

Don
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Re: Church of Charis Tithes?
Post by Louis R   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:04 am

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Neither am I. Given the current Primate's character, I'm inclined to expect that the tithes of each archdiocese are kept there, with a _very_ clear expectation that they will be expended in the Church's proper domain.

n7axw wrote:
dan92677 wrote:Originally didn't 90% of the local tithes go on to Zion?

If so, 2% or 3% kept at home would be an increase (locally)


Do we have textev for this question? I'm not aware of any...

Don
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Re: Church of Charis Tithes?
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:18 am

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Louis R wrote:Neither am I. Given the current Primate's character, I'm inclined to expect that the tithes of each archdiocese are kept there, with a _very_ clear expectation that they will be expended in the Church's proper domain.

quote="n7axw"
quote="dan92677"
Originally didn't 90% of the local tithes go on to Zion?

If so, 2% or 3% kept at home would be an increase (locally)
/quote

Do we have textev for this question? I'm not aware of any...

Don /quote


I think that some of the tithes would have to flow upward. The maintenance of a Cathederal, the Bishop's residence, the Arch-Bishop's residence, the residences and life of all the upper- and lower-priests, acolytes and othe such hangers-on would probably require more cash than the cathedral could sustain from it's own tithes, although the Arch-bishopric (and now the Church) of Charis probably has a lot of income from church properties which could go a long way to supporting that. On the other hand, you want to keep a local church's income in the range of just maintaining the church and it's priest so that they don't get too uppity.
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Re: Church of Charis Tithes?
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:27 am

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dan92677 wrote:Originally didn't 90% of the local tithes go on to Zion?

If so, 2% or 3% kept at home would be an increase (locally)


I doubt it very much. The church was/is responsible for local churches and all their clergy, hospitals and just about all doctors, schools, legal expertise, welfare, clergy at diocesan level, cathedrals, agricultural advice, controlling heresy and innovations etc. There is no way that could possibly be done if 90% of the main income stream was going on to 'Zion'.

Zion may have controlled a large chunk of it, RFC never made clear how much IIRC, but clearly, a good deal of it must have been actually spent locally. Even remembering that one of the legitimate points of the tithe is that God's richer children should help support the church's services to his poorer ones so that there will definitely have been some'cross subsidy' going on, most of the church's money was probably spent 'locally'. The point is that the church was so rich that even the Vicars' lifestyles just didn't amount to a huge percentage of its income, IMHO.

Other than at the grand strategic level, and pretty much even there, RFC has actually been very quiet about any internal changes to the working practices and day to day running of the CoC, probably because it hasn't been very relevant to the war.
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Re: Church of Charis Tithes?
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:25 am

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Randomiser wrote:
dan92677 wrote:Originally didn't 90% of the local tithes go on to Zion?

If so, 2% or 3% kept at home would be an increase (locally)


I doubt it very much. The church was/is responsible for local churches and all their clergy, hospitals and just about all doctors, schools, legal expertise, welfare, clergy at diocesan level, cathedrals, agricultural advice, controlling heresy and innovations etc. There is no way that could possibly be done if 90% of the main income stream was going on to 'Zion'.
Definitely. Although one other way to tap local resources to cover local needs while letting more of the tithes head upward would be to have some Church services that'd otherwise need tithes to pay for them come from "volunteered" labor from minor orders. Be a nun/monk, and time after what the monastery stakes to provide for itself may go to: help with the sanctification of border lands, teaching local kids, nursing support for the local Pasqualites, cathedral maintenance, parish church construction, etc. But that's still likely to contribute only a modest bit.
Zion may have controlled a large chunk of it, RFC never made clear how much IIRC, but clearly, a good deal of it must have been actually spent locally. Even remembering that one of the legitimate points of the tithe is that God's richer children should help support the church's services to his poorer ones so that there will definitely have been some'cross subsidy' going on, most of the church's money was probably spent 'locally'. The point is that the church was so rich that even the Vicars' lifestyles just didn't amount to a huge percentage of its income, IMHO.
Right. The 'cross subsidy' point is important: dirt poor parishes aren't going to be able to pay for all the Church-provided services they are due as God's children under the Writ, and wealthier ones - which may not be close - are going to be able to support more than they need.

Unfortunately, one other way the Church had so much to spread around the vicarate probably came from tithes that did start going upward instead of providing all the Writ expected of the Church for God's children. Certainly that's the picture in Zion itself til Duchairn woke back up to his responsibilities and set himself to working hard on the responsibilities he could serve without Clyntahn killing him. (Darn shame about that bit where an increasing percentage of God's children got declared heretics and Shan-wei worshippers with the remainder set to kill them. Conscience isn't anything comfortable for Vicar Rhobair.)

That sort of flow upward isn't a part of the Church of Charis, I'm sure. Chances are that the tithes aren't doing much flowing from one nation to another in the EoC, but then, I doubt there was ever much of that in the CoGA though. (Sodar probably got something from other states' tithe base, just for being a whole poor country.) The CoC seems to leave a lot more power in the hands of the national components than the CoGA - it may well be modeled as a kind of federation of national churches, which would be an excellent model for the CoGA itself, if the mainland wants to opt for a nominally orthodox church after the jihad but recognizes (heck, maybe insists on!) that Zion's power is broken and that each state has a wide authority over its own Church affairs.
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