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Internal Combustion

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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by chrisd   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:02 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Relax wrote:They used to start engines with gunpowder(compressed air)... Larger engines that is. All others were hand cranked just fine.


A lot of German WWII aircraft were Diesels and used an inertial starter -- a flywheel wound up by ground crew and then engaged to turn the engine.

I've only seen jet engines started with gunpowder cartriges -- notably the B57's across the ramp from our shop at Ubon RTAFB in 1971. No particular reason for doubting it would work on Diesels, just never seen any mention of gunpowder starters.


There's always the "Coffman Starter", or the direct Blank cartridge system used for the Field Marshall (and Lanz) agricultural tractors.
Last edited by chrisd on Wed May 11, 2016 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Joat42   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:58 am

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thinkstoomuch wrote:..snip..
I have the chipped tooth to prove it and want to stay away from direct crank. <shudders> How I didn't break an arm is a mystery.

Have fun,
T2M

Got a sore arm and very wet when in my teens tried to crank-start my fathers 12' fishing boat. It had a 2 cylinder kerosene engine which we initially started with gasoline and switched over when it got up to temperature.

Anyway, on the first crank it backfired and I flew out of the boat into the water. There's a certain amount of confusion when you land in cold water with an arm that feel like it's on fire. :)

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:14 am

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Contemplating the Internal Combustion Engine engine and the development of the tank. I did say that I think too much, right. Generally poorly and in widely scatter brained sort of way. :)

Military development generally are a refinement of current civilian designs.

If you look at early tanks what did they use. By and large engines that were first developed for trucks and tractors. Poorly adapted at that. I believe.

You have 15 horsepower draw bar dragons. Developing that 1940's Farmall Model "A" with its 9 drawbar horsepower seems like a step backward. Much less the original types. There is a reason in the 30's that "Of Mice and Men" had harvesters powered by 20 mules. Replace mules with one dragon that hugely more energy efficient than a mule. One critter eats less probably does more.

Wagons to early trucks not even in contention.

Yes the inner circle has all the knowledge of the developments. But how do you get "hardheaded" conservative Farmer John to support it.

Steam engines for ships well that is a relatively simple task. Look at sail plan complexity and size to a steam engine. It is smaller, does more. Now if a small boat(ferry, lighter or water taxi perhaps) is the basis for development ... then a backwards path, sort of, is available for steam.

As an aside. I wonder why dragons could not used to turn that propeller via a "dragon" cage or treadmill. As the author I could come up with reasoning. Dragons get seasick is the easiest to my mind.

Just some scattered thoughts on the difficulties faced.

Have fun,
T2M

PS Looked at what I posted yesterday contemplate how close I came to being dead. Mouth to temple is not all that far apart. Which is why I am all in favor of removing human from moving parts proximity.
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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:29 am

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thinkstoomuch wrote:As an aside. I wonder why dragons could not used to turn that propeller via a "dragon" cage or treadmill. As the author I could come up with reasoning. Dragons get seasick is the easiest to my mind.

Dragons not dragging field artillery seems to be from them being really, really intolerant of the bangs. That'd take them out of tanks or muscle-powered screw galleys too, for instance. (Although I have to wonder if you couldn't deafen them for the purpose. Kinda mean, granted, but it's not as though animals aren't put through worse to get soldiers or one another e.g. fed.)
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by n7axw   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:32 am

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thinkstoomuch wrote:Contemplating the Internal Combustion Engine engine and the development of the tank. I did say that I think too much, right. Generally poorly and in widely scatter brained sort of way. :)

Military development generally are a refinement of current civilian designs.

If you look at early tanks what did they use. By and large engines that were first developed for trucks and tractors. Poorly adapted at that. I believe.

You have 15 horsepower draw bar dragons. Developing that 1940's Farmall Model "A" with its 9 drawbar horsepower seems like a step backward. Much less the original types. There is a reason in the 30's that "Of Mice and Men" had harvesters powered by 20 mules. Replace mules with one dragon that hugely more energy efficient than a mule. One critter eats less probably does more.

Wagons to early trucks not even in contention.

Yes the inner circle has all the knowledge of the developments. But how do you get "hardheaded" conservative Farmer John to support it.

Steam engines for ships well that is a relatively simple task. Look at sail plan complexity and size to a steam engine. It is smaller, does more. Now if a small boat(ferry, lighter or water taxi perhaps) is the basis for development ... then a backwards path, sort of, is available for steam.

As an aside. I wonder why dragons could not used to turn that propeller via a "dragon" cage or treadmill. As the author I could come up with reasoning. Dragons get seasick is the easiest to my mind.

Just some scattered thoughts on the difficulties faced.

Have fun,
T2M

PS Looked at what I posted yesterday contemplate how close I came to being dead. Mouth to temple is not all that far apart. Which is why I am all in favor of removing human from moving parts proximity.


Unlike Weird Harold, I think that the ICEs are pretty much inevitable, whatever the arguments pro and con might be.

And people will adjust. It will happen over time rather than instantly with more conservative parts of the planet adjusting more slowly.

And yes, moving parts are dangerous. I've had some close calls myself. But, again, we learn to cope. I have as a neighbor a retired farmer who lost one hand to a pto shaft. It didn't stop him from using ptos. It merely made him more careful not to get the other hand in harm's way.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by enutt   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:01 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Use diesel. That is an ongoing discussion that ceops up from time to time on the forun.

Don

-


Don't even diesel engines require spark plugs? If so, doesn't this require the generation and distribution of electricity? (Not my area of expertise)
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:08 pm

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By definition, not. The ignition source in a diesel is that the air in the cylinder is heated up by compression to the point that the fuel ignites on contact.

You may be thinking of "glow plugs", sometimes needed to pre-heat the engine in cold weather.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by saber964   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:11 pm

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enutt wrote:
n7axw wrote:
Use diesel. That is an ongoing discussion that ceops up from time to time on the forun.

Don

-


Don't even diesel engines require spark plugs? If so, doesn't this require the generation and distribution of electricity? (Not my area of expertise)



No, diesel uses fuel air compression to generate heat, which causes the explosion.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by dan92677   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:04 pm

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Almost...

The compression heats the air above the ignition point of the fuel so that when the fuel is injected (mechanically or electrically) into the cylinder, it ignites from the intense heat of the compression. Very simple.

Diesels used to always have mechanical injectors, nowadays, it can be either type of injector.

Dan Jones
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by RogueWarrior   » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:43 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
Keith_w wrote:Not gonna happen. AFAIK, petroleum IC engines require electricity which is banned by the proscriptions, a line which the Charisian Empire is unwilling to cross at this time. OTOH, I fix computers not cars, so it may be that there is a way of burning gasoline without using electricity.


It's called a diesel engine.

Although starting one up withOUT electricity is an exercise in turning a crank really fast...

Although we're likely to see liquid fueled steam engines before that as it's a natural progression. And who knows? Maybe Weber will go full on steampunk with Safehold's tech base before the Proscriptions get lifted.


There are types of WWII fighters and tanks that had an oversized shotgun shell to start the engine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter

Big savings on weight.

Or just use a huge compressed air tank.
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