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Internal Combustion

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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:28 pm

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evilauthor wrote:Um, guns are already approved.


Gunpowder was approved because of a hefty bribe to the Inquisition. I'm not sure how guns got approved.

Still, although to twenty-first century minds there is no difference between an explosion driving a piston and one driving a bullet, to Safehold's perspective the source of the explosion is relevant and using "petroleum" (or bio diesel or kraken-oil, or whatever) to cause explosions is NOT already approved.

If you can figure out how to run an ICE on gunpowder, you're probably covered. Run it on anything else and you are going to need to bribe the inquisition to get it approved.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:44 pm

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While the question was about IC engines and gasoline, there's no reason it could not be used as fuel for a steam engine of any sort. L.E. Modesitt used kerosene, another crude oil product for steamers in his "Ghosts" stories.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by kel   » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:50 pm

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You can start ICE with compressed air it done on near enough ever ship I have been on to date.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by evilauthor   » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:52 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
evilauthor wrote:Um, guns are already approved.


Gunpowder was approved because of a hefty bribe to the Inquisition. I'm not sure how guns got approved.

Still, although to twenty-first century minds there is no difference between an explosion driving a piston and one driving a bullet, to Safehold's perspective the source of the explosion is relevant and using "petroleum" (or bio diesel or kraken-oil, or whatever) to cause explosions is NOT already approved.

If you can figure out how to run an ICE on gunpowder, you're probably covered. Run it on anything else and you are going to need to bribe the inquisition to get it approved.


Somehow, I don't think Charis' Intendant is going to be very obstructionist when it comes to introducing new explosives. I mean, he approved "Lewisite" after all.

And if he approves, everyone is going to take him at his word.

Also, gunpowder set the precedent. By approving gunpowder for general use, the Church made controlled explosions acceptable to the public. Barring explicit Proscriptions in the Writ on a given material, that means ANY kind of explosive is damn near pre-approved as long as it gets inspected by a respected Intendant first.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:00 am

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evilauthor wrote:...that means ANY kind of explosive is damn near pre-approved as long as it gets inspected by a respected Intendant first.


And therein lies the sticking point. Pater Wylstnn very nearly didn't approve steam power according to textev. He's gotten easier about approving "Heretical" innovations, but he's got limits -- as does the man-on-the-street.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Relax   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:26 am

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kel wrote:You can start ICE with compressed air it done on near enough ever ship I have been on to date.

They used to start engines with gunpowder(compressed air)... Larger engines that is. All others were hand cranked just fine.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:37 am

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Relax wrote:They used to start engines with gunpowder(compressed air)... Larger engines that is. All others were hand cranked just fine.


A lot of German WWII aircraft were Diesels and used an inertial starter -- a flywheel wound up by ground crew and then engaged to turn the engine.

I've only seen jet engines started with gunpowder cartriges -- notably the B57's across the ramp from our shop at Ubon RTAFB in 1971. No particular reason for doubting it would work on Diesels, just never seen any mention of gunpowder starters.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by evilauthor   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:10 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
evilauthor wrote:...that means ANY kind of explosive is damn near pre-approved as long as it gets inspected by a respected Intendant first.


And therein lies the sticking point. Pater Wylstnn very nearly didn't approve steam power according to textev. He's gotten easier about approving "Heretical" innovations, but he's got limits -- as does the man-on-the-street.


Um, you do know that he's part of the Inner Circle now, right? And that he's totally on board with breaking the Proscriptions and will do any logic chopping necessary to approve technological advancements?

The only thing he can't do is approve EXPLICIT violations of the Proscription, like anything that uses electricity. However, I sincerely doubt diesel engines are that explicitly prohibited, and its operating principals are a logical outcome of both guns and steam engines, close enough that Safeholdians used to both will have no trouble accepting diesel. Especially if/when it gets used and no divine retribution is immediately forthcoming.

And if Pater Wylsynn gives his okay to diesel engines, then for everyone but a rabid Clyntahn supporter, that's good enough.

Which is not to say that diesel engines don't violate the INTENT of the Proscriptions. They do. But then again, so do steam engines and guns, and no one even blinks at either of those anymore. From there, accepting diesel isn't much of a stretch. And Pater Wylsynn has no intention of supporting the Intent of the Proscriptions anymore.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Expert snuggler   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:23 am

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Safehold may not have the materials but turbines are another option.
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Re: Internal Combustion
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:43 am

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evilauthor wrote:Um, you do know that he's part of the Inner Circle now, right? And that he's totally on board with breaking the Proscriptions and will do any logic chopping necessary to approve technological advancements?


Yes, I do know he's part of the inner circle and champing at the bit. He's also aware of how Internal Combustion Engines work and what advantages and disadvantages they confer.

So why hasn't he encouraged someone to "invent" Diesel engines?

I think the answer is that Internal Combustion Engines don't confer enough advantages to push the Man-on-the-street's understanding of the proscriptions. Steam is enough to win the war, overturn the Proscriptions and shut down the OBS. At that point they can bypass Internal Combustion nearly entirely and most directly to electric and/or fusion or some 24 century Handwavium.

Howsmyn is also in the inner circle, and he's champing at the bit for electric tools, not Diesel engines.
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