Comparing weapons

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't have the text in front of me. Did it say the bomb literally weight 500 lbs (or even that the explosive filler weighed 500 lbs)?

It's possible that by the 24th century the "megatons" style designation had worked it's way down to conventional explosives - so unless you're talking about carry weight explosives are talked about in terms of their equivalent tons (or pounds) of TNT.
But that's just off the cuff speculation on my part and might be flat out contradicted by the actual text...

It said a 500 pound bomb. Normally when the weight of a bomb is given, it refers to the total weight, not the weight of the explosive filler.

Henry Brown wrote:It said a 500 pound bomb. Normally when the weight of a bomb is given, it refers to the total weight, not the weight of the explosive filler.

I screwed up stopped my quote a paragraph and a page set up apart.

I will go back and correct my error as well as post it here.

Stefyny and Hailyn, and every member of their families, whirled back to the north as the five-hundred-pound bomb punched through Saint Frydhelm’s decks as if they’d been made of paper. It detonated squarely in the galleon’s magazine, surrounded by fifteen tons of gunpowder, and a pillar of fire raged into the heavens.

I do hate it when I screw up. Which is all too often!

Thank you for making me go back and check.

A shame faced,
T2M

trimmed down the book quote

thinkstoomuch wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't have the text in front of me. Did it say the bomb literally weight 500 lbs (or even that the explosive filler weighed 500 lbs)?

It's possible that by the 24th century the "megatons" style designation had worked it's way down to conventional explosives - so unless you're talking about carry weight explosives are talked about in terms of their equivalent tons (or pounds) of TNT.
But that's just off the cuff speculation on my part and might be flat out contradicted by the actual text...

As more than a month has passed.

Sept. YOG 897 .VIII. wrote:They were loaded only with old-fashioned chemical explosives, but Owl had built them in several sizes . . . including a two-thousand-pound version filled with half a ton of explosives far better than anything Sahndrah Lywys had ever produced

Have fun,
T2M

Thanks for posting that.
I do note that the 2000 lbs bomb was described as "filled with half a ton of explosives". Unless that's a hardened deep penetrator bomb isn't having 50% of the weight to the bomb casing and guidance a very, very, high percentage? (If the bomb weighs 2000 pounds, and the filler is only 1000, that leave 1000 for everything else)

Maybe that is a clue that Merlin is using 'equivalent poundage' ratings, and the explosive is roughly twice as powerful as the baseline (presumably still TNT). Or maybe its suppose to be a clue that it is a hardened deep penetrator. Or maybe it's nothing. <shrug>

I more or less expect that my off-the-cuff speculation about 'equivalent tonnage/poundage' measurement is wrong. But that's fine.

I know that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I didn't realise that basic physics and chemistry fell into that category

As already pointed out, the gap between chemical and nuclear explosives is carved into the bones of the universe. While there's little doubt that better explosives can be developed, they won't be significantly better in terms of energy density. Where the improvement is likely to appear is in the shock-wave velocity, which makes them better at shattering things. And, as it happens, not all that much use in a GP bomb.

The other thing is that a 0.5kg bomb, even if it had the explosive force of a 250kg device, wouldn't have done the job. Exploding on the deck, it would make a right mess of the ship, and possibly even set it on fire, but wouldn't necessarily sink it. It would be guaranteed to leave survivors who would either have to be hunted down individually or left as witnesses. Guided down the main hatch into the hold, it would, I think, do enough damage below the water line to sink the ship, but it would be guaranteed to leave even more survivors, who... You know the drill. What it _cannot_ do is penetrate the magazine, detonate it, and shatter the ship so that there is no hulk to be found and no survivors who... It simply doesn't have the mass to penetrate the decking as a gravity bomb, nor could a projectile that light survive intact being driven through several decks at the velocity required to penetrate - any filler would either go off prematurely or not at all.

I suspect - it would take a lot of info we don't have to be sure - that 500# [and 500# is the total weight of the ordnance, not just the fill] is pretty close to the lightest weapon Merlin and OWL could be sure would work. At that, this was probably a semi-AP design with a stronger case and less filler than a GP bomb.

Jonathan_S wrote:

6L6 wrote:An example I would use, Merlin droped a 500 lb bomb on the ship that Thirsks family was on, it seems to me that in 400 years a 1 lb bomb should do the same job. evilauthor reread my post, you will see that I was talking about bridging the gap between chemical and nuclear wepons.

I don't have the text in front of me. Did it say the bomb literally weight 500 lbs (or even that the explosive filler weighed 500 lbs)?

It's possible that by the 24th century the "megatons" style designation had worked it's way down to conventional explosives - so unless you're talking about carry weight explosives are talked about in terms of their equivalent tons (or pounds) of TNT.
But that's just off the cuff speculation on my part and might be flat out contradicted by the actual text...

A couple of technical points - Duodec not withstanding. In nuclear weaponry, real world, you have two types, fission and fusion, along with antimatter in the Sci-Fi world.

Nuclear detonations, either type, have a very unique EM signatures that would undoubtedly be picked up by the OBS and/or sensors in the Temple.

None of the above. In a GP bomb, the fill is typically 40% of the weight, so 50% indicates a remarkably tough casing or a 'blast' bomb. The first penetrators, Barnes Wallis's Tall Boy and Grand Slam, also had 40% fill, but I believe current deep penetrators run closer to 30%.

Jonathan_S wrote:trimmed down the book quote

thinkstoomuch wrote:As more than a month has passed.
Have fun,
T2M

Sept. YOG 897 .VIII. wrote:They were loaded only with old-fashioned chemical explosives, but Owl had built them in several sizes . . . including a two-thousand-pound version filled with half a ton of explosives far better than anything Sahndrah Lywys had ever produced

Thanks for posting that.
I do note that the 2000 lbs bomb was described as "filled with half a ton of explosives". Unless that's a hardened deep penetrator bomb isn't having 50% of the weight to the bomb casing and guidance a very, very, high percentage? (If the bomb weighs 2000 pounds, and the filler is only 1000, that leave 1000 for everything else)

Maybe that is a clue that Merlin is using 'equivalent poundage' ratings, and the explosive is roughly twice as powerful as the baseline (presumably still TNT). Or maybe its suppose to be a clue that it is a hardened deep penetrator. Or maybe it's nothing. <shrug>

I more or less expect that my off-the-cuff speculation about 'equivalent tonnage/poundage' measurement is wrong. But that's fine.

I wonder if you'd get the characteristic double flash from antimatter or any release of extreme energy in general.

Jonathan_S wrote:I do note that the 2000 lbs bomb was described as "filled with half a ton of explosives". Unless that's a hardened deep penetrator bomb isn't having 50% of the weight to the bomb casing and guidance a very, very, high percentage? (If the bomb weighs 2000 pounds, and the filler is only 1000, that leave 1000 for everything else)

Um, it probably IS a hardened deep penetrator. Merlin certainly doesn't want to get caught short if he needs a deep penetration bomb and doesn't have one. On the flip side, if all he needs is a regular bomb without deep penetration, the deep penetrator could be used in a pinch with a remote detonator to keep it from penetrating to deeply before exploding.

Or maybe he has non-penetrators in his arsenal too. But most things that he'd want to use his bombs on aren't too likely to be unprotected in the open.

6L6 wrote:An example I would use, Merlin droped a 500 lb bomb on the ship that Thirsks family was on, it seems to me that in 400 years a 1 lb bomb should do the same job. evilauthor reread my post, you will see that I was talking about bridging the gap between chemical and nuclear wepons.

That´s totally unrealistic.

Compare with how development have gone in the last 400 years.
Then consider how development on explosives is essentially slowing down because its running into physical and chemical limits.
You simply cannot get an unlimited amount of energy out of a certain amount of material.
About as far as you can manage are FAE and thermobaric, and that´s just because they "cheat" one way or another.

If in 400 years, it is possible to make even a 50lb bomb equal to a 500lb bomb today, i would be quite surprised.

Look up metalic hydrogen, don't know if any has been made yet but some think it could be used as rocket fuel or explosive.