(SPOILERS) New Weapons

The response to the Katyusha has already been invented by the Germans in WWII. The Wehrmacht would create a defense line and hollow it out to create a thinly held crust (using active patrolling). The Russian artillery and Katyushas would fall on the thinly held defense line and the space behind that line, the Russian attack would advance into "empty space", and the Germans would counterattack the into the now disorganized attackers. Supposedly used with great affect at the Seelow Heights (although that is downplayed by the Russians).

Since the Church's will use them massively to gain surprise and shock effect, and its ability to manufacture Katyushas in quantity and maintain a steady supply will be limited that should limit their effectiveness.

SciFi90 wrote:

C. O. Thompson wrote:What about airships, either as surveillance or for bombing. David showed us SCUBA and the gas valves used for lighting plus, the sail making industry is about to become a thing of the past so... maybe the weave of sail cloth can be tightened up and cloth coated with the rubber we heard about in connection to improving bicycle tires and maybe a small steam boiler to drive propellers and there you go... into the wild blue yonder

SNIP

The AofG also has rockets, and a balloon or "Blimp" would be most vulnerable.

I had the same question regarding the development of aviation in Safehold. Obviously the inner circle knows that flight is possible so it can't be a failure of imagination. Heavier-than-air flight would seem to be precluded until the development of the internal combustion engine, assuming those pesky Proscriptions don't get in the way (and that Zhansyn Wyllys' research into petroleum distillation bears fruit.

That being said, lighter-than-air flight is not only technically feasible but outright desirable. Tethered hot air balloons for reconnaissance and artillery spotting could be constructed using steel thistle silk in the envelope, and oil or gas-based heaters for lift. The 120' tall towers the Earl of Hanth had built at Thesmar gave the garrison a visual range of 20 miles and were used or spotting and signaling. The defenders in the Sylman Gap used elevated positions for artillery spotting against the AOG. As the Allied armies resume the offensive it would seem that they would need these same capabilities while on the march.

At first glance, untethered, unpowered flight would not seem useful, and even assuming an understanding of wind/weather patterns such as Owl can provide, those trips would be one-way. It does have some interesting possibilities as a means of infiltration. From the Church's standpoint, balloons would be a prospective Rakurai weapon, allowing the aerial delivery of explosives and incendiaries without concern for recovering the crews.

Powered blimp and dirigible development unfortunately would require materials not yet in evidence in the books, i.e. hydrogen/helium for lift and relatively light-weight means of propulsion. Steam is an unlikely candidate as steam engines require machinery, piping, fuel, and water, making them extremely heavy (not to mention the nightmare scenario of confining the heat and flames of a firebox in an aircraft filled with hydrogen cells). So until the issue of internal combustion is resolved, even lighter-than-air powered flight would not seem practical.

The question concerning aviation on Safehold has come up plenty of times.

Besides the problems of "how do they do it within the Proscriptions", there's some question about what does the Proscriptions (or other parts of the Writ) say about human flight.

Since David Weber hasn't said one way or the other, we just don't know human flight is allowed (with the exception of using tech provided by the "Angels").

enutt wrote:

I had the same question regarding the development of aviation in Safehold. Obviously the inner circle knows that flight is possible so it can't be a failure of imagination. Heavier-than-air flight would seem to be precluded until the development of the internal combustion engine, assuming those pesky Proscriptions don't get in the way (and that Zhansyn Wyllys' research into petroleum distillation bears fruit.

That being said, lighter-than-air flight is not only technically feasible but outright desirable. Tethered hot air balloons for reconnaissance and artillery spotting could be constructed using steel thistle silk in the envelope, and oil or gas-based heaters for lift. The 120' tall towers the Earl of Hanth had built at Thesmar gave the garrison a visual range of 20 miles and were used or spotting and signaling. The defenders in the Sylman Gap used elevated positions for artillery spotting against the AOG. As the Allied armies resume the offensive it would seem that they would need these same capabilities while on the march.

At first glance, untethered, unpowered flight would not seem useful, and even assuming an understanding of wind/weather patterns such as Owl can provide, those trips would be one-way. It does have some interesting possibilities as a means of infiltration. From the Church's standpoint, balloons would be a prospective Rakurai weapon, allowing the aerial delivery of explosives and incendiaries without concern for recovering the crews.

Powered blimp and dirigible development unfortunately would require materials not yet in evidence in the books, i.e. hydrogen/helium for lift and relatively light-weight means of propulsion. Steam is an unlikely candidate as steam engines require machinery, piping, fuel, and water, making them extremely heavy (not to mention the nightmare scenario of confining the heat and flames of a firebox in an aircraft filled with hydrogen cells). So until the issue of internal combustion is resolved, even lighter-than-air powered flight would not seem practical.

[quote="DrakBibliophile"]The question concerning aviation on Safehold has come up plenty of times.

Besides the problems of "how do they do it within the Proscriptions", there's some question about what does the Proscriptions (or other parts of the Writ) say about human flight.

Since David Weber hasn't said one way or the other, we just don't know human flight is allowed (with the exception of using tech provided by the "Angels").

[quote="enutt"]

Drak,

I agree that the question of flight has not been addressed yet... it could be that anything that is not specifically prohibited could be used and, if the "archangels" thought that they had effectively throttled technology, they might have overlooked it.

I think that the infrastructure is in place or nearly there. Ideally, lighter than air till the war is over... when that is finished, the road blocks are out of the way and then they can build an orbital manufacturing plant to make shuttles cutting out all the in between and going directly to the tech that humans had when they met the Gababa.

The CoGA is the road block and time is slipping by till they can be removed from the equation.

I stated elsewhere that one day over Zion with a mission to knock out the CoGA rocket plant and an example of precision bombing strike in the Plaza of Martyrs fountain as an example and a demand that the Inquisitors be arrested and turned over for trial could break the back of the CoGA but... I have been wrong before.

Better than bombs, leaflets reading "This is not a bomb, because we honor God and the lives of His children, unlike you-know-who. You've had secret doubts about him, haven't you? But were terrified to speak up, because you thought nobody with power would be on your side? That's changed."

No auto or semi-auto until:

Smokeless powder is widely available.

Black powder causes too much particulate in the gas and would jam up gas powered systems. Even recoil systems would be affected by the gunk from black powder.

However, once introduced, M-1 Garand type rifles would rule the battlefield. But I suspect this war would be well over by the time Charis needs semi-auto or auto weaponry.

The real killer on the battlefield is artillery. Once we get enhanced explosives in the shells, the AOG is doomed.

CRC wrote:No auto or semi-auto until:

Smokeless powder is widely available.

Black powder causes too much particulate in the gas and would jam up gas powered systems. Even recoil systems would be affected by the gunk from black powder.

However, once introduced, M-1 Garand type rifles would rule the battlefield. But I suspect this war would be well over by the time Charis needs semi-auto or auto weaponry.

The real killer on the battlefield is artillery. Once we get enhanced explosives in the shells, the AOG is doomed.

I suspect that once smokeless powder is in large-scale production, semi-auto and automatic weapons will follow quickly. My guess is that they will be in large-scale production by mid-winter.

Of course, the disadvantage is also it's advantage - it uses up ammunition at an incredible rate.

One of the more subtle aspects of this is that now the scout-snipers can be equipped with smokeless powder, making it harder to locate them. And without a cloud of smoke to give away their location, perhaps sound suppressors will also become viable.

I wonder what the Fist of God would be able to do with silenced weapons with smokeless powder? There would still be a small smell component, but that could be worked around. I vaguely remember that during WW II there were Bond-style weapons such as canes and books containing guns, etc.

-- Bob G

Henry Brown wrote:I see your point. I was thinking along the lines of having a dedicated grenadier attached to platoons with an M79. But yeah, the under the barrel M203 probably would be better. That way the guys with the grenade launchers still has a rifle to defend themselves with.

True but think about how unweidly it would be, the M4 is pretty unbalanced when you slap one of those bad boys on and you don't have to manhandle it as much when you shoot as opposed to a bolt action rifle

I would think machine guns, light or heavy, wouldn't be too far in the future. Even of chambered in the same caliber as the rifles. They are one of the lynch pins in the tactics of the four F's, find/fix/flank/finish. As of yet the armies if the allies have been tactically superior and equipped better. But combat is an effective teacher, with the general of the mighty host "seeming" to be learning as much as he can. So I could see interwar or WW2 style infantry combat happening more often.

Squads moving up, finding an enemy position or force, using a MG to fix them while riflemen flank, followed by a quick assault.

Now that the church has katyusha style rockets, movement is key. And hard point/trenches will be saturation strikes.

Do any of y'all think we will see flame throwers? While an extremely vicious weapon, highly effective at clearing out bunkers and hard points. We haven't heard of how the distiller is going at making liquids fuel for a while now.