Machine Guns in Safehold

This has been bothering me for the last two books. With the advent of cartridge-based munitions and breach loading and repeating rifles, why haven't the Charisians developed the first iterations of machine guns? This is especially disconcerting in light of the upcoming showdown with the "Mighty Host", who have a documented history of using human wave attacks.

The Gatling (1862) or Gardner (1874) are obvious first steps as they are both hand-cranked, gravity-fed, and would not violate any obvious Proscriptions requiring wind, water, or manual power. Even the Nordenfelt (1873) would fall into this category although I doubt Howsmyn would opt for such an ugly solution given access to Owl's archives.

The Maxim (1886) is another obvious and historically successful option (recoil-based, water-cooled, belt-fed), but is a significant technical advance over the exiting capabilities in 896. The question would then be whether the Proscriptions would apply to the recoil mechanism. As they are not spelled out anywhere in any detail, DW can write this either way, but it would be interesting to see a justification based upon existing Safehold technology (ala Paityr Wylsynn's justification of the steam engine).

A final possibility might be the Colt-Browning M1895 (1895) (gas-operated, air-cooled, belt-fed) or maybe the Vickers (1912), which was a later gas-boosted variant of the Maxim. Aside from possible issues with the Proscriptions, I'm suspect that the current propellants in use in Safehold would preclude gas-operated guns due to fouling.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why one or more of these have not been introduced or even hinted at yet?

enutt wrote:This has been bothering me for the last two books. With the advent of cartridge-based munitions and breach loading and repeating rifles, why haven't the Charisians developed the first iterations of machine guns?

It's been discussed elsewhere, but here's a quick rundown:

1) Logistics - It's been stated that cartridge production for existing firearms is barely keeping up with demand even when Charis had yet to fight any major battles with single shot and bolt action rifles yet. There's no way cartridge production would be able to continuously supply generally deployed full auto weapons.

2) Doctrine - There's been no need for full auto weapons yet and no one outside the Inner Circle has even conceived of it yet. Even those inside the Inner Circle are still thinking in terms of individually aimed shots. And the reason they think that is...

3) They aren't needed - Historically and in Safehold, the biggest killer of massed infantry HASN'T been fully automatic weapons. It's been artillery. And Charis and her allies are lavishly equipped with artillery and mortars firing explosive shells which has been doing most of the killing and breaking of enemy held positions.

evilauthor wrote:

enutt wrote:This has been bothering me for the last two books. With the advent of cartridge-based munitions and breach loading and repeating rifles, why haven't the Charisians developed the first iterations of machine guns?

It's been discussed elsewhere, but here's a quick rundown:

1) Logistics - It's been stated that cartridge production for existing firearms is barely keeping up with demand even when Charis had yet to fight any major battles with single shot and bolt action rifles yet. There's no way cartridge production would be able to continuously supply generally deployed full auto weapons.

2) Doctrine - There's been no need for full auto weapons yet and no one outside the Inner Circle has even conceived of it yet. Even those inside the Inner Circle are still thinking in terms of individually aimed shots. And the reason they think that is...

3) They aren't needed - Historically and in Safehold, the biggest killer of massed infantry HASN'T been fully automatic weapons. It's been artillery. And Charis and her allies are lavishly equipped with artillery and mortars firing explosive shells which has been doing most of the killing and breaking of enemy held positions.

I'll ad a 4) for the Colt Potato Digger. Until smokeless powder arrives AND IN LARGE AMOUNTS, it will be off the table. Average run-of-the-mill black powder and gas operated weapons do not mix. Fouling will jam the weapon in minutes. A "Semi-smokeless" powder made with ammonium nitrate MIGHT work as long as the powder is kept completely isolated from water, both liquid and vapor.

doug941 wrote:I'll ad a 4) for the Colt Potato Digger. Until smokeless powder arrives AND IN LARGE AMOUNTS, it will be off the table. Average run-of-the-mill black powder and gas operated weapons do not mix. Fouling will jam the weapon in minutes. A "Semi-smokeless" powder made with ammonium nitrate MIGHT work as long as the powder is kept completely isolated from water, both liquid and vapor.

The Maxim gun will run on black powder because it didn't use a gas system. In fact, it was designed about 2 or 3 years before the first smokeless powder cartridge was introduced. So it was designed with BP in mind and early versions were successfully fired using BP cartridges.

Henry Brown wrote:

doug941 wrote:I'll ad a 4) for the Colt Potato Digger. Until smokeless powder arrives AND IN LARGE AMOUNTS, it will be off the table. Average run-of-the-mill black powder and gas operated weapons do not mix. Fouling will jam the weapon in minutes. A "Semi-smokeless" powder made with ammonium nitrate MIGHT work as long as the powder is kept completely isolated from water, both liquid and vapor.

The Maxim gun will run on black powder because it didn't use a gas system. In fact, it was designed about 2 or 3 years before the first smokeless powder cartridge was introduced. So it was designed with BP in mind and early versions were successfully fired using BP cartridges.

Somewhere (probably on Youtube) I've seen video of an early Maxim firing black powder. It disappears into it's own smokescreen almost immediately

Jonathan_S wrote:

Henry Brown wrote:The Maxim gun will run on black powder because it didn't use a gas system. In fact, it was designed about 2 or 3 years before the first smokeless powder cartridge was introduced. So it was designed with BP in mind and early versions were successfully fired using BP cartridges.

Somewhere (probably on Youtube) I've seen video of an early Maxim firing black powder. It disappears into it's own smokescreen almost immediately

Was this is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1qH8Ix3QTA

As far as I can tell, that is Hiram Maxim himself firing it.

enutt wrote:Does anyone have any thoughts as to why one or more of these have not been introduced or even hinted at yet?

All of the examples you listed are crew-served "light artillery" weapons best used from fixed defensive positions. None of them are particularly useful for the Charisian preference for mobility and offense.

Like mines and torpedoes, Machine Guns are technology that Charis doesn't need and should hope the CoGA doesn't think of.

ETA: Charis does currently have the technology to build a Gatling-style revolving cannon with steam or pneumatic drive for the ICN to use for close-in defense or against lightly armed merchantmen. That wouldn't be a particularly useful development for the Army, though.

A submachine gun might be useful for Charis, because it would enable their infantry to have portable and relatively light firepower. Once again, you run into the black powder fouling issue.

If you wanted to design a black powder machine gun, some sort of blowback action is probably the best.

In trench warfare, though, I believe that the doughboys during WW1 found shotguns useful.

Panzer wrote:A submachine gun might be useful for Charis, because it would enable their infantry to have portable and relatively light firepower. Once again, you run into the black powder fouling issue.

Charis has the technology to field AK-47 derivatives, and isn't far from the machining precision to build BAR or Thompson derivatives. Any of which could be built as magazine fed, man-portable light machine guns using the same cartridges as the M96 bolt-action rifles.

Of course those same weapons could be chambered for lighter "Assault rifle" cartridges or pistol cartridges.

Panzer wrote:In trench warfare, though, I believe that the doughboys during WW1 found shotguns useful.

Charis is developing (has developed?) and probably fielding a pump-action shotgun (and may be developing a pump-action rifle.) If they make them with replaceable magazines they'll be almost as good as automatic weapons.

Weird Harold wrote:

Panzer wrote:A submachine gun might be useful for Charis, because it would enable their infantry to have portable and relatively light firepower. Once again, you run into the black powder fouling issue.

Charis has the technology to field AK-47 derivatives, and isn't far from the machining precision to build BAR or Thompson derivatives. Any of which could be built as magazine fed, man-portable light machine guns using the same cartridges as the M96 bolt-action rifles.

Of course those same weapons could be chambered for lighter "Assault rifle" cartridges or pistol cartridges.

Panzer wrote:In trench warfare, though, I believe that the doughboys during WW1 found shotguns useful.

Charis is developing (has developed?) and probably fielding a pump-action shotgun (and may be developing a pump-action rifle.) If they make them with replaceable magazines they'll be almost as good as automatic weapons.

A number of the truly good sunguns as well as the CETME/HK series assault rifles were recoil systems, so would be able to operate safely with black powder. Also as I have mentioned before, the Maxim was able to worked safely up to 37mm caliber, which would make a great replacement for wolves as shipboard weapons.