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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by PeterZ » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:19 am | |
PeterZ
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A very astute analysis of Raynahld motives and attitudes, Jeff. I can't find fault with any of it. Can we take your analysis further? I suspect we can.
I think that Charisian industrial might is the carrot that just may draw out whatever "greatness" resides in the Pigeon King. His aping Charis allowed Dohlar to be the most successful jihadi nation in fighting Charis. If the Inquisition is in error regarding Charisian innovation, Dohlar can adopt those innovations and strengthen its economy and military. It can do that without foresaking the CoGA, but only if the Inquisition is in error. I can see the Raynahld wanting what Charis has enough to support a CoGA internal move to reign in the Inquisition. If Magwair and Duchairn can get Clyntahn out of the way, Dohlar can continue to support the CoGA but adopt Charisian innovations. That might just be enough to get the King to focus. |
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by JeffEngel » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:52 am | |
JeffEngel
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I wouldn't call it ennobling. The man's mostly faults wrapped up in a fairly disappointing package. But he did - maybe still does - have the ambition on behalf of Dohlar to be a great naval and mercantile power. (Take that out of OAR mostly.) That's some possible key to nudging him to fill his throne out just a little in order to move Dohlar to independence of Zion - to opt for an honest defection rather than slow death or dismemberment by occupation or civil war or a meek attempt at desertion-in-place like Desnair. He himself would be totally cool with desertion-in-place - it's looking like his default response to the jihad. All I'm hoping for out of him is a brief respite from the funk, the pigeons, and family time to do his job long enough to put Dohlar on a long-term survivable, respectable path. |
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by JeffEngel » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:04 pm | |
JeffEngel
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I'm not suggesting drawing out any greatness in the man. I don't think we're going to find it. I'm just figuring that there is reason to hope that, with enough reason and support, people could draw some adequacy out of him to change Dohlar's direction and then let him get back to being as little involved in his government as he's constitutionally inclined to be. I challenge him to rise above 100% fecklessness, so that in a brief, shining moment of giving a modest 20% feck, he gives his ministers the clout needed to turn the ship of state. That's it. If the Temple can get its affairs in order, sack Clyntahn, reign in the inquisition, and end or taper off the jihad, Rahnyld won't even need to come in from the pigeon coop; his ministers could attend to Dohlar's affairs just fine. If Duchairn and Magwair need any thumbs-up from secular leaders for that, I'm sure he could be brought in long enough to give it that and then back out of the spotlight again. |
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by PeterZ » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:09 pm | |
PeterZ
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let's make this slightly more challenging for Raynahld. Suppose Dohlar is completely cut off from the CoGA. Further suppose that Bishop Maik is able to defang the Inquisition locally. Will Raynahld attain 60% or even (shall we hope?) 80% feck? To clarify will he achieve 60% of a king's minimal worth and lead the nation to support Maik's initiative? I believe the prospect of achieving his dream of national prosperity might just encourage him to do just that. |
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by JeffEngel » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:51 pm | |
JeffEngel
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I'm not sure that would take 60-80% feck. (Although feck measurement remains an inexact science....) But yeah, if people set it up for him so he needn't worry about the Inquisition in Dohlar, and held his hand a lot, and nudged him politely (or not so politely, in case he gets terrifying midnight conferences with Zhevon Ahrahms) - then yes, I think he'd point Dohlar out of the jihad and into friendly industrial and commercial rivalry with Charis, the same sort Siddarmark is itching for. |
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by n7axw » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:32 pm | |
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Yeah. Jeff is speculating, but that's what we do here. What I'm hearing in the speculation is that Rahnyld feels helpless in the current situation, but might come through if presented an opportunity to do something genuinely constructive. Perhaps. But I do think that the opportunity for him to rise to the occasion is there. His council needs shaking up to strengthen his government and forge a consensus for getting out of the current mess. Rahnyld is the one with the authority to do the shaking, but I doubt that he sees it. And I'm unsure about the timing. But left to themselves, his ministers will dither and do nothing until military defeat becomes crushing. Don - When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by JeffEngel » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:48 pm | |
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That, and prodded to do it, and encouraged to do it. He's not come across as someone with a well-developed sense of initiative, either.
I think he may be dimly aware of obedience to the Temple nowadays as a choice, that obedience may be worse - both morally and in terms of realpolitik - than embracing schismatic Reformism, and that's it on him to make that call for himself, his family, his dynasty, and his country. And that terrifies him. Thus, hiding among the pigeons, getting as uninvolved and as distracted as he can be. It's not at all responsible or admirable, but it's very understandable, very human. It's what you'd expect out of anyone without great big heaps of moral courage and wisdom in his position, when they can't really get behind the default choice, can't commit to the rival option, and can avoid making it somehow. But it's not a stable situation: all it would take is someone either helping him commit to Reformism or circumstances forcing him to make a choice finally. Sarmouth's poisonous favor of returning the RDN crews that would be certain to be claimed by the Inquisition for not fighting to the death may just poke Rahnyld and his ministers with a stick that way: feed your own brave, hard-fighting sons and brothers to the torture machine, or stand up to it at last. (Jump on in, the water's fine.) Heck, if Bishop Maik has great big brass ones under his cassock, as the RDN intendant, he may force it: accept the crews into the custody of the Inquisition and then defy the Temple by keeping them in Dohlar and in service aboard their ships. |
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by PeterZ » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:36 pm | |
PeterZ
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Maik forcing the issue is an interesting proposition. He harms his own position because as an Inquisitor, he has taken an oath to obey the Grand Inquisitor. Will his betraying his oath cost him respect with Dohlar's generally loyalist populace? Will his disobedience force Dohlar to either support him and then join the Reform movement or reject him regardless of how much the populace may hate Clyntahn?
I just don't see Dohlar joining the Reform movement. They may well support the non-Clyntahn factions of the CoGA, but I don't see Dohlar as a whole rejecting the CoGA prior to the reveal. So to succeed in any maneuvering in Dohlar, Maik needs to move within established CoGA politics. That would argue Thirsk also maneuvers within the context of established CoGA politics. In all likelihood both will move together or not at all. |
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by n7axw » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:59 pm | |
n7axw
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Most Reformism in the books is not schizmatic. It's just asking the church to clean up its act. It really didn't become schismatoc in Charis or Siddarmark until the attack on Charis and the SoS. I would expect Dohlar to eventually become schismatic out of self defense. If you are going to establish peace with Charis whether voluntarily or in response to military force, you can't have the inquisition trying to sabatoge it. Don - When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Direction of the story | |
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by JeffEngel » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:13 pm | |
JeffEngel
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"Established CoGA politics" is a slippery thing anymore. On the other side, you've got: 1 - The Church of Charis, which itself enshrines freedom of conscience so consistency of doctrine there is a weak reed; 2 - Charisian "Temple Loyalists" who nevertheless do not throw themselves into CoC services with explosives and blow up like Clyntahn would expect them to; 3 - Reformists who may not quite identify with the CoC but certainly don't identify as an opposition to it in Corisande at least and probably elsewhere in the Empire; and 4 - The new Reformed Church of Siddarmark, which is really just what happens when the Temple throws you out and you still feel like following the Writ and worshiping God and the Archangels the way you always have. On "their" side, you've got: 1 - The Church of Clyntahn, where the church is all about killing people who do, uh, something, something bad, definitely, but the only definite claims you get that way from them come as a result of torture - and oh yes, Mother Church is now all about torture, and fear; 2 - The CoGA that helps the sick, succors the poor, teaches you right and wrong as a kid in Wednesday School, that's still kinda there (thank you, Vicar Rhobair) but seems to be operating still at the sufferance of the Church of Clyntahn when it's the only one most of you ever knew or loved; 3 - varieties of it that suggested that it'd run into some troubles, lost its way a bit, and could use some adjustment (though, unfortunately, that kind of talk will get you tortured and killed nowadays); and 4 - the genially corrupt, dispensations and judicial judgments for a price, Temple power machine that's developed over the last few centuries, rather distracting (2) from its work, prompting (3) to come about at all, and opening the door for its much worse successor, (1). All it takes to cross over to the other side is to have the Church of Clyntahn kick you out too; all it takes to get that is to defy it in a way that not all parties are content to hush up. (Desnair still pays tithes, and the Church of Clyntahn does need them.) I doubt there's really room for Maik, Thirsk, or Dohlar generally to buck Clyntahn at all without having to go all the way over, as far as Clyntahn and the Temple are concerned. In Siddarmark, they've had to adopt Reform just because they're not allowed to be orthodox anymore. That's not even a bad description of how it played in the Out Islands. If you just want to have any of the CoGA varieties that isn't the Church of Clyntahn, you've got to rebel. If you want to play the old corrupt power politics game but without people getting maimed to death now, you've got to adopt some form of reform the Temple will not accept. I doubt Dohlar is eager for anything radical; they're just coming to a point where the alternative to radical is being in a concentration camp, as guard, executioner, or prisoner. |
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