Apollo below the Wall

Hey forum people! I've been on my latest reread of the later part of the series, and there's a fair bit of speculation on the next generation of Manticoran naval technology and tactics bubbling away in my noggin. My guess is that there's nowhere better than here to give voice to that speculation. I do know these ideas pop up from time to time on the forum, so I tried to take the time to make sure this one was on reasonable footing before throwing it to the wolves.

Please, be gentle with the noob.

So, Apollo is a really amazing system and all, but it's currently restricted to the Wall of Battle due to the size of the shipboard systems needed to make it practical. I've seen two proposals to fix this in my time lurking the forums; the first is an (IMHO) very flawed idea about building light Battle Squadrons of BB(P)s, the second was an old discussion of giving a future Nike variant "asymmetric broadsides", say with Keyhole II to starboard and a bunch of tubes to port. These are both highly flawed plans. MWW addressed the BB(P) idea in such glorious and exhaustive detail that I'll leave analyzing that as an exercise to the reader. I don't firmly recall whether he addressed the second, but while it's the more workable of the two thanks to the RMN's off-bore capabilities, it's still a highly flawed solution. To your consideration, I respectfully submit my own interpretation of the problem, with two proposed solutions, and one caveat.

The caveat is that, to the best of my knowledge, the RMN as yet possesses no two-stage variant of the Apollo concept. There's not any reason given in libro, other than that the various Bureaus see Apollo as a trick for SD(P)s. Of course, such a missle would be larger far than the Mark-16. Of course, the missle would need it's own, dedicated broadside tubes. Of course, this would cut into available ammo space. And, of course, adding in the Keyhole II platforms to control them would take up even more of the broadside space of a Nike sized BC. These are not reasons to abandon the idea, however. These are reasons to think just a bit bigger.

The Nike BC is a damn good ship, and clocks in at 2.5MT. This is too small for Apollo, given the Manties current level of FTL-com miniaturization, even if they crammed it into a two-stage missile. Instead, the the hull should be around 3 to 4MT, i.e. battleship sized. It would represent to Apollo what the Roland represents to the Mk16: the minimum necessary platform capable of mounting the weapons system in a worthwhile way. The real question isn't whether it should be designed, but whether it should be designed for the BC role or the BB role.

To some extent, the designation is unimportant; either way, it represents capabilities that the navy could make good use of for the tonnage, and one could do for another in a pinch. However, calling it a BB makes it sound like it's made for the Wall, and it really isn't. Just like with an old style SD v. BB fight, I'd expect an Apollo SD(P) to take out more than it's own tonnage in Apollo BBs. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems unwise in the long term to call it a BB, even if it can wallop pre-Apollo wallers.

As the Nike-class's logical successor, the class makes more sense. It can do what the Nike's do, only far more so. With Apollo DDMs behind a sixth of its missile tubes, a single ship could easily inflict a favorable exchange rate on even Oversteegen's BatCruRon. Keyhole II would thicken it's defenses in a way that that makes the extra tonnage already very worthwhile. It would have similar, if not greater, endurance at maximum rate fire. And finally, the percentage of those shots which told would be far higher, letting its skipper be more frugal with ammo if she felt like it.

Neither of these proposals are for SD(P)s, and they should not be treated as such in any case. But they are designed to handle the world likely to exist by end of the 3-5 years it takes to get a new design tested and constructed. When other people's ships start getting close to the Nike BCs capabilities, you'd best be deploying a Nike-killer.

How'd I do, and what do ya'll all think

I don't see this as a practical idea until the size needed for the Keyhole II, shipboard support equipment, and missile FTL transceivers come down in size significantly.
That said IIRC BuWeaps thought they could engineer an FTL transceiver into a normal Mk23 sized missile if they gave up a drive ring. (Making s capital ship missile sized DDM). If you also wanted it to act like a Mk23E control bird I'm not sure if pulling the warhead and rods would give you enough space for the fire control links to the slaved attack missiles...

But even if it could you'd either end up with a BC(XXL) throwing vastly oversized DDMs (if all we MK23 size) or else you've got a non-homogeneous set of tubes; with some being cap ship sized to launch the DDM control birds. That's risking some lucky hits causing a massive reduction in fire control effectiveness. Lose a couple control bird tubes and much of you broadside falls back to non-FTL, non-multiplied, fire control.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't see this as a practical idea until the size needed for the Keyhole II, shipboard support equipment, and missile FTL transceivers come down in size significantly.

The main problem with the idea of fitting Apollo -- even a DDM version -- to smaller ships, is that it the equivalent of equipping destroyers with 16 inch battleship guns. It is just way more capability than the smaller ships need; It is probably more capability than KHII SDs need in most cases as well, unless they're facing other pod-layers with equivalent capabilities.

Weird Harold wrote:The main problem with the idea of fitting Apollo -- even a DDM version -- to smaller ships, is that it the equivalent of equipping destroyers with 16 inch battleship guns. It is just way more capability than the smaller ships need; It is probably more capability than KHII SDs need in most cases as well, unless they're facing other pod-layers with equivalent capabilities.

How does this prevent a ship from accomplishing their primary mission? There is no reason you should try to arrange a fair fight in combat. So if adding this capability doesn't significantly detract from the main mission, why is it a bad idea?

kzt wrote:How does this prevent a ship from accomplishing their primary mission? There is no reason you should try to arrange a fair fight in combat. So if adding this capability doesn't significantly detract from the main mission, why is it a bad idea?

The one reason -- of many -- for not over-gunning your light units is in textev as the reason Agamemnon-class BC(p)s carry Mk-16 pods instead of Mk-23 pods as their normal armament; being over-gunned tempts captains and commanders into fighting well over their weight and getting into fights they aren't designed to withstand.

For accomplishing smaller ships primary missions, the Mk 16 DDM or even ERM and LERM SDMs are adequate to prevent a fair fight against the intended opponents.

Does anyone know, how many missles a Apollo device can control? Normally a Apollo device controls 8 combat missles, but that´s the number of missles you can put in a pod with a Apollo, that doesn´t say, that Apollo maybe can control even more missles!


I don´t understand, why it isn´t possible, to send data to missles with the sensor platforms! Sensor Probes have a gravity comunicator like the Apollo and you send them to the enemy lines to overwatch the Situation. So, why you can´t use them as a com Relais to send target corrections or in Zavala´s case, the self destruct code?

Maldorian wrote:I don´t understand, why it isn´t possible, to send data to missles with the sensor platforms!

The simple answer is because the author says you can't.

The in-universe answer is because Drones and Hermes Bouys don't have missile control channels and/or enough comm channels to control a missile swarm.

Welcome to the forums derKaroliner! Have a beer on us. We're fresh out of Old Tilmans due to shipping problems. But we do have some of our brand new local stock. It's called...

Honor's Heinie - Aged by a prolonged brewing process, tastes like butt but kicks ass.

Very popular, seems everyone wishes a taste of it.

It has become the official house beer in Manticoran country clubs and the subject of discussions of many Pee-ers.

Thanks for the beer cthia! And butt though it be, it's still better than those Old Earth IPAs that have been all the rage lately. Darned hop-purists need to be knocked off their high horse.

But I digress...

Weird Harold wrote:The main problem with the idea of fitting Apollo -- even a DDM version -- to smaller ships, is that it the equivalent of equipping destroyers with 16 inch battleship guns. It is just way more capability than the smaller ships need; It is probably more capability than KHII SDs need in most cases as well, unless they're facing other pod-layers with equivalent capabilities.

You are correct, given the threat environment which currently pertains in the Honorverse. But threat environments are not static beings in the MDM era, and Manticore/the GA face a number of foes with highly dedicated research establishments hell bent on replicating their advanced war-fighting capabilities. Eventually, the FTL-com and Apollo will be deciphered by Manticore's enemies, and a Nike wouldn't be capable of fighting off even the smallest Apollo, or even all-up MDM, capable unit.

It might seem excessive at the moment given the paucity of SLN long-range combat power, but I'm trying to put a bit of thought into the next war. This concept should be excellent in the commerce and light system raiding role, and should discourage anyone from thinking they can get away with building a raiding fleet of pocket battleships that the SD(P)s won't have time for.

Of course, if the next generation of miniaturization allows a KHII the size of KHI, and an FTL control missile the size of its armed cohorts, then by all means continue putting them in Nike sized hulls. I just expect that that's a decade off, whereas my concept could be laid down in 1923 PD.

What I've found is that the MWW tends to throw a curveball every so often when it comes to Manty tech advances. More than likely, he'll move the Manties to individually FTL controlled missiles before he moves to control missiles for smaller platforms. He might even have them get around keyhole itself somehow, and move to directly controlled systems.

Or maybe drone LACs with compensatorless designs that can swarm the enemy in ways that are impossible right now. Controlled, of course, from the carrier over KHIII platforms. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he has them do that, given how the MWW has generally trailed possible real-world tactical and strategic doctrine in the Honorverse.

derKaroliner wrote:Thanks for the beer cthia! And butt though it be, it's still better than those Old Earth IPAs that have been all the rage lately. Darned hop-purists need to be knocked off their high horse.

But I digress...

Weird Harold wrote:The main problem with the idea of fitting Apollo -- even a DDM version -- to smaller ships, is that it the equivalent of equipping destroyers with 16 inch battleship guns. It is just way more capability than the smaller ships need; It is probably more capability than KHII SDs need in most cases as well, unless they're facing other pod-layers with equivalent capabilities.

You are correct, given the threat environment which currently pertains in the Honorverse. But threat environments are not static beings in the MDM era, and Manticore/the GA face a number of foes with highly dedicated research establishments hell bent on replicating their advanced war-fighting capabilities. Eventually, the FTL-com and Apollo will be deciphered by Manticore's enemies, and a Nike wouldn't be capable of fighting off even the smallest Apollo, or even all-up MDM, capable unit.

It might seem excessive at the moment given the paucity of SLN long-range combat power, but I'm trying to put a bit of thought into the next war. This concept should be excellent in the commerce and light system raiding role, and should discourage anyone from thinking they can get away with building a raiding fleet of pocket battleships that the SD(P)s won't have time for.

Of course, if the next generation of miniaturization allows a KHII the size of KHI, and an FTL control missile the size of its armed cohorts, then by all means continue putting them in Nike sized hulls. I just expect that that's a decade off, whereas my concept could be laid down in 1923 PD.