Direction of the story

Louis R wrote:As for Siddarmark, people keep on talking about them getting the Border States or a chunk of Dohlar without ever explaining why they'd want them. Or what they'd do with them. Chuck the locals out? Enslave them? Compost them to enrich the soil, maybe? Making them citizens of the Republic doesn't strike me as a viable option, but what else can you do with them? There's a good reason the Republic hasn't expanded by forcible annexation, and I don't see Stohnar & Co. forgetting that at this juncture.

Agreed. And right now, the Republic still needs to forcibly re-annex half its own territory - major army formations are broken up in it now, but it's not re-integrated into Republican civil order yet.

I do think they'll be happy - thrilled - to negotiate closer relations with neighbors who want it that they could not before the Sword of Schueler, such as Silkiah and perhaps some northern crust of Desnair. It's remotely possible some portion of the Temple Lands in the north or some Border States may be that too, but I would not bet even money on it. I don't think that Dohlaran subjects have any desire to stop being Dohlaran - the fact that Dohlar never got sucked into being part of the expansionist and nearby Harchong, Desnair, or Siddarmark suggests to me that it's got one of the strongest national identities on the mainland.

I doubt the Republic wants reparations or annexations that are going to leave enemies determined to come back in a generation, or with populations within their borders who hate being on that side of the border. I do think it wants to make sure that, for a generation at least, everyone who's distinguished themselves in the attack on them does not want to do it again - and does not feel that honor or national pride or integrity demands it. It's definitely a lot sharper-edged than Charisian sentiment but it's not some uncontrollable hunger to make mortal enemies of every neighbor in reach.

The Book of Sheuler needs to be discredited. The CoC rejects its teachings on doctrinal grounds. That love of God and obedience to His will cannot be compelled. Maikel makes this argument to Paityr just after Charis rejects the CoGA authority. Maikel effectively reconciles the dichotomy between the pre and post War Against the Fallen Writ. Paityr gradually accepts Maikel's argument because that doctrine is more consistent with the rest of the Writ and acts as a limiting factor to the potential excesses inherent in the Book of Sheuler's teachings.

Unlike Paityr, most of Safehold are not so steeped in theology and have learned to trust their priests. They will not trust their gut unless their gut feel is endorsed by their priests. Theology and doctrine are required to persuade the priesthood.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Morality is both a function of what one is taught and what is in one's heart. Children do not grow up knowing God. They must learn how reach for Him. When one doesn't know how to reach for Him, one is left only with what one is taught.

Most Safeholdians have this problem. The Writ does not encourage Faith as it relies on proof and all sorts of evidence. That means they are much more dependent on doctrines found in the Writ. They are not as practiced in thinking about moral issues outside of what is accepted.

So I believe doctrine first and morality second.

The problem with a doctrine first approach here is the the doctrine is deeply conflicted. The church might harmonize it and rationalize it away, but what we come up with from Bedard is very different from what's in the Book of Schueler. So what are you going to believe? The conflict doesn't come up as long as the Book of Schueler isn't implemented. But now it stands out for everyone who has ever learned the catechism.

Whatever Mother Church might want, you finally can't turn off people's brains and humankind has always produced its thinkers. It is even turning up amongst the guards in those concentration camps ....or think of that inquisitor who ended up facing the punishment for his compassion on Stfny's family. Think of Nybar's troops starting to separate Clyntahn from Mother Church. All of that reinforces the point I'm making. When the doctrune starts breaking down, people will instinctively reach for what they know is right and go with their gut...

Don

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"Persuade the priesthood".

They're as emotional as anyone else. Theological arguments alone won't change their minds.

Judging from the rot in the Temple, there may be a lot of local priests described by "Where a man's treasure is, there will his heart be also". The Church of Clyntahn may soon become unable to pay them.

Expert snuggler wrote:"Persuade the priesthood".

They're as emotional as anyone else. Theological arguments alone won't change their minds.

Judging from the rot in the Temple, there may be a lot of local priests described by "Where a man's treasure is, there will his heart be also". The Church of Clyntahn may soon become unable to pay them.

Having been a participant in theological argument, I can assure you that there are no winners if winning means changing someones mind. Coming up short just means retrenching and getting ready for the next round.


When my positions have shifted, it has been due to a "lightbulb" insight or a significant life event.

Don

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Both of which are and will be in plentiful supply on Safehold.

Another loose end to this story begging rehash has to do with Sharleyan's scheming nobles. How do you deal with Rock Coast, Black Horse and the others?

Right now we know that the crown wants them to come out into the open to provide the evidence necessary for their arrest. But this does risk an uprising that could prove expensive in lives and treasure before it's surpressed.

What sort of precautions are necessary for the crown to take? Is there a better way of dealing with the situation?

My own take is that there needs to be a floor on the numbers of troops below which those numbers are not allowed to fall left in Chisholm no matter what happens in Siddarmark next summer...

What do the rest of you think?

Don

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n7axw wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:"Persuade the priesthood".

They're as emotional as anyone else. Theological arguments alone won't change their minds.

Judging from the rot in the Temple, there may be a lot of local priests described by "Where a man's treasure is, there will his heart be also". The Church of Clyntahn may soon become unable to pay them.

Having been a participant in theological argument, I can assure you that there are no winners if winning means changing someones mind. Coming up short just means retrenching and getting ready for the next round.


When my positions have shifted, it has been due to a "lightbulb" insight or a significant life event.

Don

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Enter the King Haarald VIIs. What greater evidence that those life changing behemoths do not offend God than their presence attacking the CoGA forces and no divine opposition manifests? That is life changing, Don.

These ships are evidence for a Church that relies on evidence that current doctrine is erroneous. Sure the moral argument will also be used and that will persuade a good number of Safeholdians. The challenge to established doctrine that these ships represent will persuade a great many more because of the Church's reliance on evidence.

PeterZ wrote:
Enter the King Haarald VIIs. What greater evidence that those life changing behemoths do not offend God than their presence attacking the CoGA forces and no divine opposition manifests? That is life changing, Don.

These ships are evidence for a Church that relies on evidence that current doctrine is erroneous. Sure the moral argument will also be used and that will persuade a good number of Safeholdians. The challenge to established doctrine that these ships represent will persuade a great many more because of the Church's reliance on evidence.

You might be right on this one. But if they were looking for this kind of evidence to prove anything, there is already lots of it laying around. God should have intervened a long time ago and he hasn't. So now what? The Haarahlds might drive the point home for the waverers, but are there enough of them?

We shall see...

Don

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PeterZ wrote:Snip

Enter the King Haarald VIIs. What greater evidence that those life changing behemoths do not offend God than their presence attacking the CoGA forces and no divine opposition manifests? That is life changing, Don.

These ships are evidence for a Church that relies on evidence that current doctrine is erroneous. Sure the moral argument will also be used and that will persuade a good number of Safeholdians. The challenge to established doctrine that these ships represent will persuade a great many more because of the Church's reliance on evidence.

Uhhh, what if Zhwaigar has a lightbulb moment about mine warfare? Would having one or both of these monsters sitting on the bottom of Gorath Harbor get you to think that maybe Mother church is in the right and god has smitten the heretic?

Of course, some might ask "Where the Langhorne have you been these last few years?" This might lead to some very interesting other thoughts that could really muddy the story waters.

EdThomas wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Snip

Enter the King Haarald VIIs. What greater evidence that those life changing behemoths do not offend God than their presence attacking the CoGA forces and no divine opposition manifests? That is life changing, Don.

These ships are evidence for a Church that relies on evidence that current doctrine is erroneous. Sure the moral argument will also be used and that will persuade a good number of Safeholdians. The challenge to established doctrine that these ships represent will persuade a great many more because of the Church's reliance on evidence.

Uhhh, what if Zhwaigar has a lightbulb moment about mine warfare? Would having one or both of these monsters sitting on the bottom of Gorath Harbor get you to think that maybe Mother church is in the right and god has smitten the heretic?

Of course, some might ask "Where the Langhorne have you been these last few years?" This might lead to some very interesting other thoughts that could really muddy the story waters.

I wish he would. That would prove the KH VIIs are NOT demonic, but simply an application of what is allowed to humanity. After all human ingenuity was responsible for the KH VIIs and human ingenuity was responsible for defeating/harming them. No demons participated in the inspiring, building or operating them.

God was not offended by the demonic intervention because there was no such intervention, so He did not need to intervene.