Direction of the story

People will come to conclusions and cite the part of the Writ that best fits them.

Marion Starkey's book about the Salem witch trials says, with a twist of irony, that toward the end of it people were beginning to treat the Book of Job as more Christian than the Revelation of St. John.

PeterZ wrote:Valid points, Jeff. I was actually thinking of the difference between Samyl Wylsyn and Clyntahn. Both are Inquisitors. Both believe in the Book of Shueler including the provisions on the Punishment. Yet, one is a good man by any measure and the other is largely an appetite. Let me be clear, both Clyntahn and Wylsyn will torture people in the most vile ways and yet Wylsyn can still be a good man while Clyntahn is morally bankrupt.

We can speculate on the doctrine that would reconcile this, but in the end it boils down to how the doctrines in the Book of Sheuler are applied.

Perhaps. But Samyl never had to come to grips with sending anyone to the punishment. I wonder if he would be able to do it omce he came face to face with the reality of the Book of Schueler. The picture of God presented there as vastly different than the one he cherished in his heart.

Don

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Don,

Inquisitors had to be trained in torture techniques as part of their responsibilities. They don't have to enjoy it, but did have to be trained in it.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Valid points, Jeff. I was actually thinking of the difference between Samyl Wylsyn and Clyntahn. Both are Inquisitors. Both believe in the Book of Shueler including the provisions on the Punishment. Yet, one is a good man by any measure and the other is largely an appetite. Let me be clear, both Clyntahn and Wylsyn will torture people in the most vile ways and yet Wylsyn can still be a good man while Clyntahn is morally bankrupt.

We can speculate on the doctrine that would reconcile this, but in the end it boils down to how the doctrines in the Book of Sheuler are applied.

Perhaps. But Samyl never had to come to grips with sending anyone to the punishment. I wonder if he would be able to do it omce he came face to face with the reality of the Book of Schueler. The picture of God presented there as vastly different than the one he cherished in his heart.

Don

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PeterZ wrote:Don,

Inquisitors had to be trained in torture techniques as part of their responsibilities. They don't have to enjoy it, but did have to be trained in it.

I'm sure that's true, but it misses my point. I never suggested that Samyl actually do the torturing, but rather make the decision to send someone to the punishment which he was never in a position to do.

Don

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Perhaps. Then again perhaps in certain circumstances he would indeed order it done or even do it himself. I believe he was prepared to torture and order further.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Don,

Inquisitors had to be trained in torture techniques as part of their responsibilities. They don't have to enjoy it, but did have to be trained in it.

I'm sure that's true, but it misses my point. I never suggested that Samyl actually do the torturing, but rather make the decision to send someone to the punishment which he was never in a position to do.

Don

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In what I find the most eloquent paragraphs of the book, Irys really says it all.

“…I knew where I stood. I discovered that aboard your ship between Charis and Chisholm, and it terrified me because I realized Archbishop Maikel had been right all along—that I had to choose what I believed. What I could give my life to accomplishing. And when I realized that, I knew I would rather stand beside people like Sharleyan and Caleb—and beside the people who loved and followed them—in the deepest pit of Hell than stand in the highest Heaven with any God who could agree with Zhaspahr Clyntahn. You want that, too. I know you do because I have come to know you. And if you read all the horrors in the Book of Schueler, if you read all the lies in the Book of Chihiro, then you know that Zhaspahr Clyntahn’s God—the God of Mother Church—does agree with him.” --conversation with Sir Dunkyn when he is told the full truth

This pretty well says it all. In this passage the morality to which Irys reacts on the one hand and that which she embraces on the other come into a full throated clash and she does indeed choose. This is transformed into theology as she realizes that the character of Zhaspahr Clyntahn's god and the book of Scheuler is not the God she has loved and cherished all her life.

I believe that if he had been confronted with the choice in terms as stark and clear as Irys had, Samyl Wylsyn would have made the same choice she did.

While the rest of Safehold may not have had Iry's insight into the Book of Chihiro since at this point they are not in on the whole truth, all of Safehold is confronted with the horrors of the Book of Schueler along with the actions of Zhaspahr Clyntahn in terms that should be stark and clear.

And in that place in their hearts where God writes his law, they know that the book of Schueler and its implementation by Zhaspahr Cyntahn and the inquisition is wrong whether they care to face up to it our not.

Don

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Morality is both a function of what one is taught and what is in one's heart. Children do not grow up knowing God. They must learn how reach for Him. When one doesn't know how to reach for Him, one is left only with what one is taught.

Most Safeholdians have this problem. The Writ does not encourage Faith as it relies on proof and all sorts of evidence. That means they are much more dependent on doctrines found in the Writ. They are not as practiced in thinking about moral issues outside of what is accepted.

So I believe doctrine first and morality second.

n7axw wrote:In what I find the most eloquent paragraphs of the book, Irys really says it all.

“…I knew where I stood. I discovered that aboard your ship between Charis and Chisholm, and it terrified me because I realized Archbishop Maikel had been right all along—that I had to choose what I believed. What I could give my life to accomplishing. And when I realized that, I knew I would rather stand beside people like Sharleyan and Caleb—and beside the people who loved and followed them—in the deepest pit of Hell than stand in the highest Heaven with any God who could agree with Zhaspahr Clyntahn. You want that, too. I know you do because I have come to know you. And if you read all the horrors in the Book of Schueler, if you read all the lies in the Book of Chihiro, then you know that Zhaspahr Clyntahn’s God—the God of Mother Church—does agree with him.” --conversation with Sir Dunkyn when he is told the full truth

This pretty well says it all. In this passage the morality to which Irys reacts on the one hand and that which she embraces on the other come into a full throated clash and she does indeed choose. This is transformed into theology as she realizes that the character of Zhaspahr Clyntahn's god and the book of Scheuler is not the God she has loved and cherished all her life.

I believe that if he had been confronted with the choice in terms as stark and clear as Irys had, Samyl Wylsyn would have made the same choice she did.

While the rest of Safehold may not have had Iry's insight into the Book of Chihiro since at this point they are not in on the whole truth, all of Safehold is confronted with the horrors of the Book of Schueler along with the actions of Zhaspahr Clyntahn in terms that should be stark and clear.

And in that place in their hearts where God writes his law, they know that the book of Schueler and its implementation by Zhaspahr Cyntahn and the inquisition is wrong whether they care to face up to it our not.

Don

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One thing not to forget about Green Valley's campaign: he did it with only half the then-available winter troops. The others sat it out or were down south of the Daivyn, because he didn't have the log support to operate with a bigger force. The ICA has a) had another winter to complete the training of one or more additional Mountain Divisions and b) had another summer to beef up the winter logistics train. They may well be able to run winter ops with a force as big as 75-100,000 men. They will almost certainly be able to operate with twice last winter's force at the least.

The fun part is: how much of that do the Church's commanders realise? They have a pretty good idea how big the force was that GV used, and deduced that it was the biggest he _could_ use. But is the assumption that it was all he had or that it was just what the ICA could deploy in the available time? That makes a huge difference to their threat appreciation - 25-30,000 men moving around to the north in March aren't all that big a danger to the MHOGATA. Neither, really, is 100,000 if you're planning to meet them - they'd make the winter pretty miserable but that would be about it. However, 100,000 coming out of the snows when all you're expecting is the 25k could take a nasty bite out of a force that for all its hardiness is neither equipped nor trained for winter combat. [and, come to think of it, is still unblooded]

As for Siddarmark, people keep on talking about them getting the Border States or a chunk of Dohlar without ever explaining why they'd want them. Or what they'd do with them. Chuck the locals out? Enslave them? Compost them to enrich the soil, maybe? Making them citizens of the Republic doesn't strike me as a viable option, but what else can you do with them? There's a good reason the Republic hasn't expanded by forcible annexation, and I don't see Stohnar & Co. forgetting that at this juncture.

EdThomas wrote:This is an interesting discussion to follow. Thought I'd throw in a few thoughts.

< snip >

We know BGV's got an incredible amount of firepower, is snow-mobile and has snarc-based intelligence.
We have a fair idea of where BGV and Hanth are but that's about all we know about who's where and what their strenght is. We don't know where the Tarikah Forest is, nor do we know where the Black Wyverns are.
We know where the Bedard and Langhorne Canals are as well as the Sabana River. Unfortunately, we don't know how navigable the Sabana is.

< snip >

Will the Inner Circle see a strong ally is adequately compensated? Should Siddarmark be given eastern Dohlar, the Border States?

1) The land war would have been better for me if they'd have printed all the maps MWW wanted. Having said that, it becomes clear that losing all those AoG troops is a lot worse than it seems to Vicar Zhaspahr. (It's been said about Midway that the Japanese would have been better off not attacking Yorktown. Some say the Hiryu would not have been sunk- and her sinking meant that all the pilots on all four carriers were lost.)
There are no experienced AoG Commanders, Field Grades, Juniors, or Non-coms. They're all dead or captured.
WWII--In Russia, when the Germans surrounded Russian formations, the Russians managed to get officers and non-coms out of the bag.
The only experienced troops are Dohlarians, Rychtyr's troops fighting Hanth- and Ahlverez's battered veterans presently recovering from their "Long March"- and there is an experienced Dohlarian Navy.
2) Although outnumbered, I believe that the Charisian formations will make mincemeat out of the Mhogs. The experience- inexperience factors and the SNARCs will be overwhelming. The new Ironclads and Thrisk's new status will defeat the navy.
3) Given the above, I would think that military action will get less attention in the next book and much more attention will be given to the effects of those actions. I would also expect more focus on the deteriorating Church side of the story and less face time with the "Good guys".

PeterZ wrote:Morality is both a function of what one is taught and what is in one's heart. Children do not grow up knowing God. They must learn how reach for Him. When one doesn't know how to reach for Him, one is left only with what one is taught.

Most Safeholdians have this problem. The Writ does not encourage Faith as it relies on proof and all sorts of evidence. That means they are much more dependent on doctrines found in the Writ. They are not as practiced in thinking about moral issues outside of what is accepted.

So I believe doctrine first and morality second.

The problem with a doctrine first approach here is the the doctrine is deeply conflicted. The church might harmonize it and rationalize it away, but what we come up with from Bedard is very different from what's in the Book of Schueler. So what are you going to believe? The conflict doesn't come up as long as the Book of Schueler isn't implemented. But now it stands out for everyone who has ever learned the catechism.

Whatever Mother Church might want, you finally can't turn off people's brains and humankind has always produced its thinkers. It is even turning up amongst the guards in those concentration camps ....or think of that inquisitor who ended up facing the punishment for his compassion on Stfny's family. Think of Nybar's troops starting to separate Clyntahn from Mother Church. All of that reinforces the point I'm making. When the doctrune starts breaking down, people will instinctively reach for what they know is right and go with their gut...

Don

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