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Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by Expert snuggler   » Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:49 pm

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There are probably lots of people with doubts about the Church of Clyntahn who believe they're the only ones with doubts.

That's an unstable situation that could break quickly.

As I heard it, there was a rally for Ceaușescu at which everyone was cheering because they had to and were terrified to do otherwise. Then one person booed. It was like the child who said "Mommy, why doesn't the Emperor have any clothes on?". Soon the entire crowd was booing. Five days later Ceaușescu was dead.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by Randomiser   » Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:58 am

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n7axw wrote:
Randomiser wrote:The first snippet from the next book is gonna be a doozie!


Bless David, but I hope that if he does snippets, they happen on a predictable schedule.

Don


Amen
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:20 am

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Appropriately nuanced as ever, Jeff. I agree with your depiction that the issue is complicated with many variables in play.

My central point is that one of the key elements to almost all the fanatics will be a doctrinal justification for the jihad. The authority granted the Inquisition and the rest of the CoGA comes with it a responsibility to God and the Archangels. We see this in Father Kuhnymychu, the Reformists in Corisande, Archbishop Mychal Staynair and even in the resurgent faith of Robair Duchairn. It is the abuse of that authority by abrogating these very responsibilities that Prince Nahrmahn blames for the loss of moral authority.

A sound doctrinal argument that the jihad was launched in error will erode the fervor of the vast majority of the fanatics. Absent that fervor or at least reducing that fervor greatly, allows all these other issues that influence support for the jihad to seep between the cracks of the loyalists thoughts and begin to change his mind.

JeffEngel wrote:I suspect people supporting the jihad for the most part do so for a complex of reasons: everyone around them is; their nation calls upon them to do so; they love their Church and feel it is threatened; they really believe Charisians are heretics and God and the Archangels call upon them to fight; or they can get money, power, and/or prestige doing so and/or stand to lose them otherwise. Even the religious fanatics can have a range of fanaticisms driving them: theology; rage that anyone would defy them/their Church; and the hunger for power and its exercise upon other human beings.

Father Kunhymychu, if I recall correctly, hadn't been without doubts til Stefyny asked for food - they were just stewing inside him without yet making a difference in his gross behavior. But a starving girl asking for food for her father, after risking her life fearlessly to make the request - well, he wasn't able to keep the doubts in check any more.

For most people, it's going to be the cumulative result of a lot of things they just can't abide any longer. Some of them will have their own Stefyny Moments - and certainly the sight of a KH VII could bring one on, for a variety of reasons - but some may just have a quiet time when they think about their values and situation on Safehold and decide they've got to make a change, and realize that they can do so and live, or simply aren't interested in living so much that that makes a commanding difference.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by CJK   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:34 pm

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I think you may be underestimating how ingrained the CoGA is, as an example there is the guard Merlin injured and left in command. He saw that the concentration camps were evil yet when Merlin showed up he HAD to defend the inquisitors. It did not matter that they were terrible people who tortured and killed suspected heretics, they were the representatives of the CoGA.

I do not doubt that the the erosion of the jihad is happening, I just do not think it can happen that fast. Or at least fast enough for the timetable the allies are on regarding the sleepers in the temple.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by n7axw   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:43 pm

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I don't think that sound arguments have much impact on true fanatics. After all, they always have an answer...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:58 pm

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n7axw wrote:I don't think that sound arguments have much impact on true fanatics. After all, they always have an answer...

Don


True. But how many are true fanatics? I suspect there are many, many more true believers who are influenced by theological or doctrinal arguments.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by Expert snuggler   » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:50 am

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I think Mahafee was driven by a soldier's sense of duty to his orders and not any vestige of loyalty to the inquisitors.

"Whatever he thought about the Inquisition, he had his duty. If he abandoned that, he had nothing ..." So much so that he decided death was better.

He'd also worked out that the "demon" was a seijin if I read the hints in the text right.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by alj_sf   » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:53 am

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There is a concept from pre-Confucius ancient China that applies here.

Emperors of China did rule with "Mandate of Heaven". If they were to lose that mandate, it was time to change the dynasty, and nobody, even the humblest peasant, was required to obey anymore the old dynasty members. The same concept applied btw to gods themselves.

Here the the church of Zion rules by explicit mandate from Langhorne. But when disaffection raise and only the steely hand of inquisition is left to keep people in line, it is a very small leap to justify rebellion and so side with the heretics.

I think Dohlar is just at this tipping point, and I can see Thrisk and Alvarez being leaders people can turn to. Note that would be much more dangerous than in Desnair case because a strong ally would turn in foe, but would not imply accepting the still heretic church of Charis.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by DDHvi   » Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:47 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
A sound doctrinal argument that the jihad was launched in error will erode the fervor of the vast majority of the fanatics. Absent that fervor or at least reducing that fervor greatly, allows all these other issues that influence support for the jihad to seep between the cracks of the loyalists thoughts and begin to change his mind.

JeffEngel wrote:
Father Kunhymychu, if I recall correctly, hadn't been without doubts til Stefyny asked for food - they were just stewing inside him without yet making a difference in his gross behavior. But a starving girl asking for food for her father, after risking her life fearlessly to make the request - well, he wasn't able to keep the doubts in check any more.



How much the following applies to Safehold I don't know.

After the Ayatollahs and Mullahs took over Iran, the rate of muslims accepting Christ in Iran soared. With ISIS's actions, something like that seems to be starting across the muslim world. People do seem to reconsider their theology when the actions of their leaders get nasty. If many in the real world can have Stefyny moments, fiction can follow the example. I really like:

As I heard it, there was a rally for Ceaușescu at which everyone was cheering because they had to and were terrified to do otherwise. Then one person booed. It was like the child who said "Mommy, why doesn't the Emperor have any clothes on?". Soon the entire crowd was booing. Five days later Ceaușescu was dead.


as a possibility.

The report is that in proportion to the number of people involved, the rate of conversion is higher among the Islamic fanatics than the general population. Possibly the fact that they are more involved forces some of them to actually think a little :idea: :?:
Douglas Hvistendahl
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Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk (SPOILERS)
Post by Louis R   » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:42 pm

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And the test for the loss of the mandate would be the same: if you lose the civil war, you've lost the Mandate of Heaven. Until that point, there was no way to know for sure, although widespread disaster or general misrule would definitely get the peasantry looking sideways at your tax collectors.

In the Safehold context, it would actually be a very _big_ leap. There's not only no precedent - in fact, the precedent is exactly the opposite - there's no conceptual background for it.

alj_sf wrote:There is a concept from pre-Confucius ancient China that applies here.

Emperors of China did rule with "Mandate of Heaven". If they were to lose that mandate, it was time to change the dynasty, and nobody, even the humblest peasant, was required to obey anymore the old dynasty members. The same concept applied btw to gods themselves.

Here the the church of Zion rules by explicit mandate from Langhorne. But when disaffection raise and only the steely hand of inquisition is left to keep people in line, it is a very small leap to justify rebellion and so side with the heretics.

I think Dohlar is just at this tipping point, and I can see Thrisk and Alvarez being leaders people can turn to. Note that would be much more dangerous than in Desnair case because a strong ally would turn in foe, but would not imply accepting the still heretic church of Charis.
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